Why Hasn’t God Moved In The Dr. Ergun Caner Situation?

One of the readers here at Theology Today asked me the following question via email.

Why hasn’t God moved in the Ergun Caner situation?

Dear Reader,

Sometimes He moves and we don’t recognize it.

Isaiah 55:8-9

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I believe He has moved in the following ways…..

Christians claiming that Matthew 18:15-18 was violated in this unfortunate situation and Galatians 6:1 should have been employed don’t know very much about their bibles. To think some of these complaints were coming from the keyboards of Pastors is disturbing. How can a shepherd mediate a dispute amongst the sheep if he himself doesn’t understand the biblical principles involved in reconciling such disputes?

In spite of the overwhelming evidence that Caner has offered false testimony in regards to his past Dr. Norman Geisler still defends him. While I wonder how that could be I certainly admire him for being willing to take the proverbial bullet for defending his friend. We should all be that lucky. We don’t have a clue what Geisler has said to his friend privately and I’m willing to bet he has or will read him the riot act.

I think its unfair to criticize Dr. Emir Caner for not exposing his brother publicly. It’s true this should be the case but would you do to your biological brother what you are criticizing Dr. Caner for not doing? Its easy to say you would but until you’ve been placed in that situation you have no idea what you would do. My gut tells me most wouldn’t publicly expose their brother. We also don’t have a clue what he’s told his brother privately.

While this situation should be about integrity amongst Christian leaders some have successfully deflected the real issue (Dr. Caner’s false testimony), turning it into a Calvinist/Arminian circus of mudslinging, threats of physical violence and an ugliness that has nothing to do with the fruits of the spirit. This is unfortunate and unnecessary. More importantly it has allowed the unbelieving world to once again point there fingers at Christians and say “why would I want to be like them”. You know something? They are absolutely correct.

Liberty University? After this debacle I think it would be a stretch to even consider Liberty a credible secular university but a Christian University? No way. To their credit they did remove Dr. Caner from his role as Dean of the Theological Seminary but to allow him to immediately return to the lecture hall sends a mixed message the students don’t deserve. The mixed message? Sin has its consequences but not life altering consequences. I’m sure King David would have LOVED to have been Dean of Liberty University!

Should Ergun Caner publicly repent and apologize to those he has deceived? Yes. Will he? Probably not and it doesn’t seem to matter much as he’s still teaching and speaking at conferences. Perhaps God is showing us that not everything that glitters is gold and we need to focus on Christ and Him alone and not some man with a gift of gab and a flashy story that glittered in the sun but upon closer inspection was nothing more then fools gold.

Assuming you know who Dr. James White is do you still view him in the same way as you did before this whole saga began? Some have told me privately that they will never listen to him again while others have stated they have a whole new respect for him. I would be in the latter category. Its refreshing to see someone of his renown step up and risk his reputation to do the right thing. I pray it isn’t the last time he does this as if it weren’t for him initially bringing this to the Body Dr. Caner would be singing the same untruthful song as well as being still able to call himself Dean and President of Liberty Theological Seminary.

God also revealed a hidden gem who is currently living in Enid Oklahoma. Her name is Mrs. Debbie Kaufman. Because of her efforts it appears God has opened doors for her to witness to the Muslim community. She now has “street cred” with these folks. She didn’t look the other way like most within the SBC have which I’m sure has made an impression on those who look at Christians as hypocrites who rail against others while coddling their own. She doesn’t coddle Muslims either. She simply loves them.

So, dear reader, this is how I see God moving in all of this. I’ll post this up on the site and see what others have to say.

Thanks,

Phil

So dear readers. How do you think God has moved in this situation?

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73 thoughts on “Why Hasn’t God Moved In The Dr. Ergun Caner Situation?

  1. Assuming you know who Dr. James White is do you still view him in the same way as you did before this whole saga began? Some have told me privately that they will never listen to him again while others have stated they have a whole new respect for him.

    My impression of White is mixed; I appreciate his connecting the dots on Caner and bringing the matter to the attention of the community. He gets on his high horse sometimes, though, and he occasionally makes accusations as part of the Caner situation that are ill-founded or poorly-founded. He accused Christianity Today for taking a particular editorial point of view because of Liberty’s ad buy; Hussein Wario correctly called him on this; to my understanding he admitted he was factually incorrect but didn’t apologize. He’s accused Caner of having a lead foot, of having a “man-cave” full of WWE memorabilia; both of these struck me as unbecoming. He’s made vague allegations against “how things are done at Liberty” on the basis of private communication he hasn’t shared and that so far as I can tell can’t be sourced elsewhere. He’s made all these allegations on his podcast within the last eighteen or so episodes.

    I thought White was kind of a jerk, for lack of a better term, before this Caner episode. He hasn’t done much to shift that impression.

    White will be an invited speaker in town in a couple of months; I’ll probably still go hear him speak.

    I have a higher opinion of blogger TurretinFan; he’s pretty much alone in having stuck to the facts, been thorough in investigating questions, collecting artifacts, generally steering clear of opinion and condemnation, etc. I think he’s done a lot of the heavy lifting that e.g. James White, Norm Geisler, or any of the Caner defenders should have done. My only gripe is that he doesn’t use his real name online.

  2. Hey Phil,

    I think God has moved greatly in this case. The fact that Liberty hasn’t listened doesn’t change anything.

    On a related matter to your article about Pride which fits this situation also, here’s a thought for the day.

    “When someone boast of their anointing, they have just proved they don’t have any!”

  3. Phil, Mike, and Boyd,
    Here’s a question: What does any of these fellows do for Christ? Do you really think White or Caner ever go take the gospel to the unchurched? How does an apologist serve God? Did the NT church ordain apologists or receive the gift of apologetics?

    No.

    Apologetics without real evangelism is ostentation. It avoids the hard, thankless, unglamorous work apologetics (being ready to give an answer) was designed to do.

    So much of Modern Evangelicalism is filled with preening boys in a twisted beauty pageant. That’s why the acrimony. Caner is part of an institution that disciples men for a price. Is that Scriptural?

    No.

    Why do we even pay attention to these guys? I think we care too much about these institutions because we think God works through them. God ordained the church, not the seminary. God ordained evangelism, not a disconnected apologetics “ministry”.

    Think about this: The church turned the world upside down without seminaries, apologetics websites, publishing houses, TV networks, or denominations. They didn’t have church buildings for the first several centuries.

    But they had the power of the Holy Spirit and His church. The elders gave themselves full time to the Scripture and prayer. That was all they had. It was a bit like Joshua marching around the wall of Jericho. He had no power at all but to do what God said and trust Him. It was a different way of doing things. It was simple.

    Because they only had the Holy Spirit, God received the glory. That being so, there was much less about which to fight.

    Caner lied his head off and that hurt the institution so the institution backed a liar. So who’s more important? God or the institution?

    I do care about these guys, but a lot less than I used to, because they didn’t die for me, and they likely aren’t even saved men. I care because both of them damage others. Think Caner is saved? Read Prov. 14:2. White? I don’t know. I haven’t followed him. I don’t think I’d trust him. He went to Fuller. Has he ever repented of that? I went to a bad seminary. I didn’t realize it at the time, and I wasn’t saved.

    I’ve decided to call my ministry Just the Bible. It’s rather naked, but that’s where I’m going, God willing.

    The more time I spend time in Scripture, the less I care about Big Religion. I find it irrelevant to my life and those ways it is relevant it’s always a negative.

    For instance, I believe the Doctrines of Grace. I’m not a Calvinist. Calvin killed heretics and he was antisemitic. How can I be a Calvinist? I can’t. I didn’t get the sovereignty of God from a dead Swiss murderer who hated God’s chosen people. I got it from Scripture. Billy Graham was a complete fraud, even pulling money shennigans. Ravi Zacharias has shared conference pulpits with Word of Faithers, Chuck Colson works with Catholics and pushes mystics, and David Jeremiah has actively, repeatedly promoted Ken Blanchard, and on and on and on…

    Big guys with big institutions haven’t done us any good. They’re flashy. They’re big. They’re voracious consumers of Christian time, money, and prayer. If we all go back to our churches, support our elders, visit the sick, evangelize the lost, and study and pray, isn’t that what we’re supposed to do?

    Could that work one more time?

    Phil Perkins.

    • Hi Phil P,

      How are you these days?

      I’m curious to what you mean by this statement

      White? I don’t know. I haven’t followed him. I don’t think I’d trust him. He went to Fuller. Has he ever repented of that?

      Could you expand on this for me please?

      Thanks,

      Phil

    • Why do we even pay attention to these guys?

      I started listening to James White because I’m curious about Calvinism and given the format and content of The Dividing Line I think I get a better perspective from White than from e.g. R. C. Sproul.

      I care about the Caner situation because I’m a Liberty graduate and I get regular requests from the ministry for donations.

    • To Mike DeLong,
      How are you? My sympathies. This whole thing must hurt your heart. I can empathize. It’s never easy to heart this sort of thing about folks you’ve trusted.

      How long ago did you graduate? Are you still SBC?
      Phil Perkins.

    • To Phil N.,
      אני טוב תודה ואתה?

      (I’m well, thanks. And you?)

      I don’t trust any of the biggies anymore. And as to Fuller, FTS was seminal in New Evangelicalism. When I was kid, I thought the old man, Charles Fuller, was fine. Read a little history on him, though, and you’ll find he was thick with Carl Henry and Harold Ockenga. They lead the way in the rejection of biblical separation from false teachers. The reason FTS was started was to provide a place for the New Evangelicals to get educated. The idea was to be as educated as the clergy of Liberal Protestantism so they might convert to conservative doctrine. It didn’t work.

      He was bad enough, but he died in 1968. After that, if I recall correctly, it was taken over by his kid, Daniel. He was an outright liberal.

      If White attended there and didn’t realize what he got into, that’s one thing. If he knew it and did it anyway, that’s quite another. Has White ever said anything about this? He still uses Fuller as a credential. Why?

      This is what I call the Sieve of Satan. A young man isn’t allowed in the Modern Evangelical pulpit without going to a Bible school or seminary and it’s very hard to find one where you’ll not be praying with, sitting under, and fellowship with folks who deny basic biblical doctrine. For instance, did you know Wheaton in Illinois has had Emergent profs for decades now? Not long ago, they had two pro-homosexuality speakers there within a few months of each other. Most of the schools are in compromise like this to one degree or another. The result? A clergy without anyone who practices personal or corporate holiness–an unsaved clergy.

      Remember Promise Keepers. It was a movement that was supposed to stop churchmen from cheating on their wives. Didn’t work did it? Focus on the Family was supposed to stop church couples from divorcing and raising unsaved children. Didn’t work. Mission conferences come and go and we still mow the church building and think we’re serving God.

      Where is God in all this? If His Spirit was active in us the story would be different.

      Anyway, I don’t see any of the biggies really acting like the church is supposed to act. I don’t see them doing the sort of things we’re supposed to do. I see them building kingdoms that aren’t God’s kingdom. I can’t tell each one of them what God has called them to do, but I don’t see them doing much of what God has called the church to do. Don’t you think a few should be doing those sorts of things?

      Of course, if they did biblical things they wouldn’t be biggies, either.

      Expanded that like my waistline, huh?
      Phil Perkins.

    • You are dead on Phil Perkins. Neither Jesus or any of the apostles could find a place in big religion today. Unfortunately most of the small churches I have visited want to grow to be like the mega-entertainment barns. Most of the people who are being converted at these big barns are being converted to big money entertainment religion, not Jesus.

    • Phil P —

      I graduated from Liberty in the late Eighties; Liberty became part of the SBC in 1999. I was never SBC; I grew up in independent Baptist churches in central Virginia that split off from the SBC in the Fifties and Sixties (for better or worse). Liberty joined the SBC and there was a press release saying that in return the SBC named four members to the Liberty board. I have no idea what else was involved when that arrangement was made.

      To be honest I haven’t paid much attention to what’s been going on at Liberty since I left; there were/are people there I think the world of, and I’m grateful for my time there, but I had mostly not paid much attention. Jerry died in 2007 and Jerry Jr has worked very hard in the last several (five to seven, I think) years to get the school on its feet financially, and he’s done an impressive job getting the bills paid, etc.

      When Jerry was alive he occasionally did embarrassing things and we mostly overlooked them because he was Jerry. Now the ministry is in the hands of Jerry Jr and Jonathan and I’m interested in what’s going on in Lynchburg again.

      I am still trying to get a bead on who Caner is; I have been able to glean from the papers that circa 2008 he spent a lot of time on the road selling the seminary. I have no idea what he was saying on his road show: I don’t know if he was telling his “Islamic Youth Jihad” story or something else. And of course I have no idea if his audiences when he was telling his “Islamic Youth Jihad” story were assuming he was telling them something historical or not.

      • Ergun is a fraud. He lied about his testimony and demonstrated it though his lack of understanding of Islam and pathetic attempt to speak Arabic. Liberty loves his celebrity status and kept him around to continue to shamelessly promote Islamaphobia. Glenn Beck speaking there is the tip of the iceberg. Nowadays it’s like New Evangelicalism on steroids. Okenga’s repudiation of separation has come to its fruition with schools like Liberty remaining silent about all the signs and wonders of IHOP, bobblehead Lou Engle, and ‘prophet’ Harry Jackson as long as one is pro-life. Even Falwell’s head would be spinning if he saw what the “Christian Right” has become. I saw a clip of college sudents screaming at the introduction of Ergun Canor the same way teens do at a Toby Mac concert. I have to wonder who are they being taught to worship.

  4. Gary and Folks,
    Timothy got his education from his grandma and an old crippled up guy named Paul. In our small-minded world, perhaps we should get a picture of Paul to discredit Timothy. If White lied about his education, that’s evil. But this fellow that went to get a picture to prove that White’s teachers may be “podunk” is evil, too. This is hideous and really makes my point far better than I did. We are carnal.

    And where did Jesus get his education? Hosea? Moses? Joshua? Peter?

    This is bigotry. If it hasn’t the imprimatur of Big Religion it’s irrelevant? God can’t be in it? And if it’s “big time” it has to be of God? Are you kidding me? Are we to believe one fellow because he went to a big school and ignore another who quotes Scripture? The Messiah wouldn’t qualify!! Not to pick on Gary, but we’ve all been trained to think this way and it’s VERY ungodly. We’re in Corinth and only the upper crust get the higher seats.

    And you know what? We would kill Jesus again because He would tell us to repent of this Pharisaical nonsense and that would mean a lot of us would have to give up our positions.

    And that ain’t gonna happen.

    SHAME on us!
    Phil Perkins. PS Read Paul’s qualifications for a spiritual leader. If you find “non-podunk” or “big time” tell me. I seem to have missed it.

  5. I personally witnessed James White’s cutting off of an old man’s microphone simply because the old man said something that James White did not like. The old man was just as nice as he could be, and it was plain to see that James White threw a temper tantrum.

    Which episode was this? I’d like to hear this for myself.

  6. Phil N.

    I didn’t catch the game. I have been working fifty hours a week at half the wages(thanks Obama for the bailout) of a year ago. Baseball has really changed this year since the steriods have worn off, nobody can hit the ball. Watch and see if they don’t lower the mound like they did after Gibson’s year in 1968, to bring the numbers back up.

    Back to the topic. Liberty is in it for the bucks(Caner has been a cash cow). If your grads make big money, then they can donate, right?

    • Back to the topic. Liberty is in it for the bucks(Caner has been a cash cow). If your grads make big money, then they can donate, right?

      I don’t know to what degree either of these is true. Caner apparently spent a lot of time on the road between 2005 and 2008, and in the meantime the seminary has grown substantially. Budget numbers have been hard to find, though, and it’s entirely possible that during Caner’s tenure as president the seminary grew but lost money.

      Liberty handles a lot of money but for many years was a loss leader inside the ministry. This has apparently changed under Jerry Jr’s leadership. He’s reached out to alumni, but I have no idea what percentage of the budget relies on alumni giving. The school has traditionally made ends meet because of high-profile one-time donations and because it was subsidized by the rest of the ministry (Thomas Road Baptist Church and The Old Time Gospel Hour). It has a tiny endowment compared to published operating costs.

      Christianity Today published an article (last year?) about how Jerry Jr made changes etc. to get the ministry on its feet. It has some fascinating insights into how expensive Liberty is to operate.

    • Now imagine this: What if we trained our pastors in the church, following the NT example? Lots of plumbers, lawyers, waitresses, farmers, secretaries, and welders who love God could either keep the money for their family or give it to reach the lost.

      Which is more fitting in light of the biblical example of discipleship and in light of the commission we’ve received? Why not hire a full time evangelist to hit the streets in your town or in another land?

      New concept, or an old one?

      Having taught in a Bible college and having gone to seminary, I can tell you that the classes are mostly about stuff that has nothing to do with the Scripture or how to study the Scripture.

      So in light of the sufficiency of Scripture, church-based, personal training is the way to go. But a lot of very important fellows would lose their Big Religion jobs.

    • Boyd Miller,
      I’ve been thinking about a conflict you and I had some time ago. I was too harsh. I apologize. I could have made the point a lot better.

      Phil Perkins.

  7. Hi Phil P,

    Thanks. I’m slammed here at work. Lots of hours on court and it’s hot here. Other then that I’m doing well. Thanks for the Hebrew:-). It reminds me I have to call the Rabbi and reschedule some lessons.

    I think what I was interested in hearing is how James White would repent from attending Fuller and what that repentance would look like. Does that make sense?

    Back to the furnace I go:-)

    Phil

  8. I respect many who post on your blog, Phil. The comments about Dr. White have me baffled, however. I attend Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and have sat through James’ teachings through Romans in the Adult Sunday School Class, et cetera. Nicest guy you will ever meet, IMHO.

    Dumb in Christ,
    Peter.

  9. Phil N. and Peter,
    First, to Phil N.’s question. Simple. In my case I don’t ever mention the seminary I went to. Do you know what it was? If I did, it would legitimize it to all my readers. So, if I mention it, I’ll do it in a way that makes clear I’d never send anyone there and I’d never contribute.

    Like I say I don’t follow White, so I’m asking.

    A clarification for Peter. John Dominic Crossan and Brian McLaren are nice guys. That isn’t exactly a biblical test. In fact, that’s horrible biblically. Fuller is a doctrinal mess and still is. I don’t know White’ line on Fuller, but if he approves of it, he’s an untrustworthy teacher at the least.

    This has to do with the biblical doctrine of separation. That’s a doctrine Fuller was instrumental in quashing. In fact, that was the point of the seminary’s creation. The whole thing was sinful.

    Read I Cor. 5. By separation I don’t mean don’t go to movies, don’t go to a bar, etc. That sort of “separation” isn’t biblical at all. I mean we are never to knowingly fellowship with “Christians” in unrepentant sin. That was the point of the inception of the New Evangelical movement and Fuller was part of that. II John 10 and 11 forbid supporting false teachers. Deuteronomy 13 tells us that those who don’t maintain separation from false religion don’t belong to YHWH and Hebrews 12:14 tell us that without holiness (which includes separation) no one will see God.

    This doctrine is foreign to most Modern Evangelicals because it isn’t taught anymore. Here’s some reading: Read about Spurgeon and the Downgrade Controversy. Read Matthew Henry and the older commentaries on the passages I mentioned and you’ll see this doctrine is historical Christianity and was until the early to mid 1900’s.

    We’re currently living in an odd time in that people call themselves Evangelical and yet don’t practice this doctrine. Read Luther, Calvin,and even Catholic scholars. Read Adventists. Religious pluralism has always been rejected, even by heretics.

    And, Peter, think of this. Even the inclusives separate if you aren’t an inclusive as well. So they practice separation from separatists and they get quite irritated about it.

    Which I find VERY humorous.

    Hope that helps.

    Phil Perkins.

    • Hey Phil P,

      First, to Phil N.’s question. Simple. In my case I don’t ever mention the seminary I went to. Do you know what it was? If I did, it would legitimize it to all my readers. So, if I mention it, I’ll do it in a way that makes clear I’d never send anyone there and I’d never contribute.

      Like I say I don’t follow White, so I’m asking.

      I haven’t heard him ever mention it. I heard it from someone who knows him personally. Yes, that would look like repentance to me as well.

      Phil

  10. Phil N.,
    I’ll start sending you emails several times a week in Modern Hebrew and you can try answering them. It’s good exercise. Know anyone who wants to learn Latin?

    Phil P.

  11. Phil P,

    I wouldn’t claim to be an expert on Dr. White, but I have listened to several of his podcasts and have been immensely blessed by his writings and arguments. It seems to me, if I recall correctly I remember him talking about the wealth of information he gleaned while attending Fuller in understanding how to effectively counter the argument of the liberal, something to that effect.

    Additionally, as I recall Dr. White began his apologetics ministry preaching the Gospel to the Mormons. He is from Phoenix and there is a large population of Mormons in the area. He would not only witness to the Mormon gatherings their in Phoenix but would travel to Salt Lake City to witness at their yearly national gathering.

    It seems to me that his apologetic work in dealing with Roman Catholics, Mormons, J.W.s, Atheists and Agnostics is of immense benefit to the body of Christ. What better way than to go to a major university engage an atheist and demonstrate to the student body listening the illogic of the atheists position. I believe he engaged a secular humanist in the Bay Area, (San Francisco) university earlier this year demonstrating the gay marriage is inconsistent with Bible. I would think the fact he has engaged the cultist, heretic, Islamic, atheist and secular humanist defending the faith once and for all delivered is an answer to this question of yours, “What does any of these fellows do for Christ?”, as far as it relates to James White. Just a few weeks ago he spent an entire weekend engaging the Islamist demonstrating the inconsistencies between Islam and the Gospel. In fact his work with the Islamic community is what lead to the Caner issue. His work defending the reformed doctrines of grace is just an element to his ministry.

    Some are offended by his approach, which frankly I don’t get. He seems to me to offer solid reasoned hard hitting argument focused on defending the Gospel and calling to repentance the unbeliever. In my mind we need more like Dr. James White.

  12. Paul,
    First, I don’t care about a guy’s style. Most of those arguments are nonsense.

    But here’s a few questions for you:

    Where in Scripture are we told to support someone if we feel “blessed”?

    Can you even define that?

    Where in Scritpure can you find it’s okay to fellowship with false teachers if we “glean” good info?

    And where in Scripture do we see that a man’s sin is covered by witnessing to Mormons?

    What prophet or apostle modeled apologetics apart from evangelism?

    And finally, since you can’t really answer the first two questions, do you know what are the biblical criteria for supporting a spiritual leader?

    Here’s a clue: It isn’t even close to anything you’ve mentioned here. And don’t take this wrong. I don’t necessarily blame you. We aren’t teaching these things anymore in the churches.

    Phil Perkins.

    • Phil P,

      Thank you for your follow-up, and I’m glad you agree style points don’t mean much. However, my personal testimony that I have found him to be of a blessing doesn’t mean, I support him because I’m blessed by his work as implied in your question. That is a huge leap to an unwarranted question, which some might think is the insertion of a straw-man.

      It seems to me that Dr. White is acting in accord with, equipping the saints. In my opinion the work he does is edifying to the saints, which I do believe has a Biblical basis. “…he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God” Eph 4:11-13, ESV

      It would appear there is more than enough Biblical basis for what he is doing. That was the point of what I was indicating when I pointed out his engagement of the atheist at a college campus, a point you seem to have jumped over. Do you think the work he does works against the edifying of the saints?

      Not to be harsh but your assertion attending an institution of higher learning equates to fellowship doesn’t seem to me to follow. Are you suggesting Christian families should NOT send their kids to public schools? If you are, that doesn’t seem very practical. We are told to be in the world but not be apart of the world, which would seem to me to include institutions of higher learning. Something about being the “salt”, comes to mind.

      You ask, “What prophet or apostle modeled apologetics apart from evangelism?” First why do you presuppose included within Dr. White’s apologetics isn’t evangelism? It seems to me Dr. White employs the very same apologetic style as the Apostle Paul did at Mar’s hill. That was the point I was attempting to illustrate in how his apologetic got going, witnessing to the lost. Based on that, without you offering any evidence to support your assertion implied within the question, your question is without foundation as it relates to Dr. White.

      You continue,

      “And finally, since you can’t really answer the first two questions, do you know what are the biblical criteria for supporting a spiritual leader?
      Here’s a clue: It isn’t even close to anything you’ve mentioned here. And don’t take this wrong. I don’t necessarily blame you. We aren’t teaching these things anymore in the churches.”

      No worries, I don’t take it wrong, I just see your comments as without foundation or basis. You seem to be offering opinion without having a clue as to the mans body of work. As pointed out, when an advocate for the Gospel demonstrates the inconsistent an illogical basis for the secular humanist, the cultist, whatever while demonstrating the Gospel is the answer that seems to me to be exactly in line with how the Apostle approached the pagans in Athens. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it seems you are offering opinion on Dr. Whites work without performing any due diligence. You asked this, “White or Caner ever go take the gospel to the unchurched?”, I pointed out he does, indeed he goes right into the heart of the college campuses that are filling the unchurched with views for why there is no God, and is so doing demonstrates why their arguments denying God are illogical. Don’t you think you ought to amend your comments? You asked, “How does an apologist serve God?”, I pointed out Dr. White engages the humanist advocating God’s message as to what marriage is all about right in front of the unchurched. Don’t you think you should amend your comments. You implied Dr. White is ostentatious in this comment, “Apologetics without real evangelism is ostentation.”, without offering any basis. Don’t you think you ought to amend your comments as it relates to Dr. White?

  13. Paul,
    I didn’t thnk of that. If we have public schools we should definitely send a man to Fuller. Got me there!

    Uh….the relevance of public schools to the discipleship commanded in Scripture?

    And when did American public schools become an example for anything in the church?

    Apologetics isn’t mentioned in Ephesians 4. The closest thing is teaching and that was to be Bible teaching, which would include preparation to give an answer.

    And your ramblings about qualifications for spiritual leaders are wrong. Tonight read through Deut 18, 31-34, and I and II Timothy.

    Now you haven’t answered a couple questions. Where in the Bible are we told to support a man because we feel blessed? And can you define that? Did you know that’s actually a pagan practice, to search for spiritual truth by reading our own internal states? Remember, I asked you for biblical grounds.

    Meanwhile, I’ll answer your questions.

    First, why do I think White practices apologetics without evangelism? Simple. I’ve never heard him ever present the gospel. And, in the Mars Hill episode, Paul was declarative, introduced the monotheist God of Hebrew Bible, and ended in the gospel. It was direct and short, not a formatted contest. Preaching is the biblical method.

    I could be wrong, because I don’t follow the man. Every time I see him he’s doing stuff that makes me not trust him. If he really goes into the colleges and preaches the gospel, good. Does he give the gospel? Even from your comments in regard to his activity there, I don’t see the gospel. Maybe I need to read better. Marriage law, and apologetics–the Mormons do that, as well. But, like I say, I could be wrong.

    Second, you don’t get to go to Bible school and seminary without attending classes. That’s kind of the point. At Fuller you will sit under heretics. That’s forbidden in Scripture, whether he witnesses or not. If you go to class, you not pray with the entire class. If you go to Fuller, you will sit under, financially support, and pray with false teachers.

    If that isn’t fellowship, what is?

    If he hasn’t separated himself from them, he’s in sin. If he has, it’s not an issue.

    Third, simply asserting that White’s ministry is biblical doesn’t make it so. I asked you for a biblical example of apologetics sans evangelism. You haven’t answered that. And he does do a lot of that. Saying you feel this, that, or the next thing is irrelevant. I didn’t ask you that because I don’t care for this simple reason: The Bible is the final authority, not my feelings or yours.

    Fourth, I do know of some of his work and some of his education. If I didn’t, how did I know that he went to Fuller? I don’t know all that much about Benny Hinn. I’ve heard him enough to know he’s a liar. It seems to me you’re making accusations about me, not without knowledge of my work, but in straight contradiction of what you know to be the truth. I’ve only mentioned that which I do know and asked for more information.

    For instance, here’s something else I know: I know that sometime ago he promoted a cruise for all sorts of folks to attend. Where in the Bible are we told to spend God’s resources lavishly on ourselves and call it “ministry”? What great benefit is there to the body of Christ from sailing the globe?

    Soteriological Shuffleboard? Swimming for the Saints? Apologetics on the rec deck? Tanning and Teleology? Surfing for the Savior? Dancing the Deity? Fine Dining the Five Thousand? Baptism, Ballroom Dancing, and Badminton?

    Are you kidding? Tell us where in the Bible we get these priorities. Get out the Scripture and tell us where God told us the church should spend time, effort, and resources on cruises instead of feeding the needy in the assembly, evangelizing the world, and devoting ourselves to prayer and the word.

    This man has no heart for the unsaved demonstrated in anything he’s doing that I know of.

    All the teaching that may or may not have happened on that cruise could have been done almost free in a church or over the internet. The teaching that went on wasn’t the point or they would have simply gotten the job done. And, yes, that’s ostentation.

    1 Corinthians 11:20-22 20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

    Thanks to the internet, I’ve come to know Christian folks in other countries. Some of them are pastors, some aren’t. Some don’t have the resources to have much more than a Bible in their library. I am going to start training a young man overseas. I’ll have to send him a webcam and, I suspect, books. Another is a pastor whose congregants could never be trained for ministry if it wasn’t provided free of charge in their local churches.

    Oh, wait! That’s the way they did it in the Bible.

    Phil Perkins.

    • Phil P,
      Thank you for you follow-up, you write,

      “Paul,
      I didn’t thnk of that. If we have public schools we should definitely send a man to Fuller. Got me there!
      Uh….the relevance of public schools to the discipleship commanded in Scripture?
      And when did American public schools become an example for anything in the church?”

      The parallel is to the educational process of the institutions. Last I checked educating isn’t “fellowshipping”.

      Phil continues,

      “Apologetics isn’t mentioned in Ephesians 4. The closest thing is teaching and that was to be Bible teaching, which would include preparation to give an answer.”

      My point exactly, the arguments presented are a form of teaching, instructing and equipping the saints. The Bible doesn’t instruct the saints that they are to be prepared to give a reason for the hope that lies within?

      You continue,

      “And your ramblings about qualifications for spiritual leaders are wrong. Tonight read through Deut 18, 31-34, and I and II Timothy.”

      Odd, I didn’t think I commented at all upon the qualifications for spiritual leaders.

      You continue,

      “Now you haven’t answered a couple questions. Where in the Bible are we told to support a man because we feel blessed? And can you define that? Did you know that’s actually a pagan practice, to search for spiritual truth by reading our own internal states? Remember, I asked you for biblical grounds.”

      I believe I pointed out that your question was without foundation. Is your MO to ignore the answers provided so that you can continue to press a red herring?

      You continue,

      “Meanwhile, I’ll answer your questions.
      First, why do I think White practices apologetics without evangelism? Simple. I’ve never heard him ever present the gospel. And, in the Mars Hill episode, Paul was declarative, introduced the monotheist God of Hebrew Bible, and ended in the gospel. It was direct and short, not a formatted contest. Preaching is the biblical method.”

      You’ve claimed “White? I don’t know. I haven’t followed him.” so the fact you haven’t heard him present the gospel doesn’t mean much. At Mars Hill the Apostle Paul confronted the Pagan with why they were wrong and why his message was correct, that is apologetics.

      You continue,

      “I could be wrong, because I don’t follow the man. Every time I see him he’s doing stuff that makes me not trust him. If he really goes into the colleges and preaches the gospel, good. Does he give the gospel? Even from your comments in regard to his activity there, I don’t see the gospel. Maybe I need to read better. Marriage law, and apologetics–the Mormons do that, as well. But, like I say, I could be wrong.”

      This admission says it all. Yes, he gives the Gospel, listen to his debate with at the University of Illinois with the atheist Dan Barker.

      You continue,

      “Second, you don’t get to go to Bible school and seminary without attending classes. That’s kind of the point. At Fuller you will sit under heretics. That’s forbidden in Scripture, whether he witnesses or not. If you go to class, you not pray with the entire class. If you go to Fuller, you will sit under, financially support, and pray with false teachers.”

      Ergo the parallel with public school. I’m not sure where you live, but the schools here begin to teach secular humanism in grammar school. If you aren’t allowed to be taught by those who deny God, then if you are going to be consistent you need to take all the kids out of public schools.

      You continue,

      “If that isn’t fellowship, what is?
      If he hasn’t separated himself from them, he’s in sin. If he has, it’s not an issue.”

      I didn’t consider instruction in a class fellowshipping with the professor.

      You continue,

      “Third, simply asserting that White’s ministry is biblical doesn’t make it so. I asked you for a biblical example of apologetics sans evangelism. You haven’t answered that. And he does do a lot of that. Saying you feel this, that, or the next thing is irrelevant. I didn’t ask you that because I don’t care for this simple reason: The Bible is the final authority, not my feelings or yours.”

      That is my point and complaint against your entire criticism of Dr. White. You’ve acknowledged you don’t know much about the man yet you claim his ministry isn’t biblical. Your claim doesn’t make it so. I’ve provided both Ephesians 4 that clearly explains teaching and equipping the saints is a biblical mandate illustrating how Dr. White does that. I also provided you Acts 17 as an example of an apologetic in action. The Apostle Paul critiqued the pagan’s worldview, countered with the Christian worldview and provided argument as to why that is truth. That is exactly what Dr. White does in his defense of the faith.

      You continue,

      “Fourth, I do know of some of his work and some of his education. If I didn’t, how did I know that he went to Fuller? I don’t know all that much about Benny Hinn. I’ve heard him enough to know he’s a liar. It seems to me you’re making accusations about me, not without knowledge of my work, but in straight contradiction of what you know to be the truth. I’ve only mentioned that which I do know and asked for more information.”

      Your complaint as to his attendance at Fuller seems really streachted. If you have an example of something where he has engaged defending the faith in less than a biblical manner I’m all ears, because thus far all I’ve read from you is unfounded allegations.

      You contine,

      “For instance, here’s something else I know: I know that sometime ago he promoted a cruise for all sorts of folks to attend. Where in the Bible are we told to spend God’s resources lavishly on ourselves and call it “ministry”? What great benefit is there to the body of Christ from sailing the globe?”

      Are you serious? Why would be attending a cruise be spending God’s resources “lavishly”. Whose standard of “lavish” are you employing? Putting together a cruise for those who can afford it to get an edifying education while on vacation is anti-biblical, wow.

      You continue,

      “Soteriological Shuffleboard? Swimming for the Saints? Apologetics on the rec deck? Tanning and Teleology? Surfing for the Savior? Dancing the Deity? Fine Dining the Five Thousand? Baptism, Ballroom Dancing, and Badminton?”

      Is this the best you have?

      You continue,

      “Are you kidding? Tell us where in the Bible we get these priorities. Get out the Scripture and tell us where God told us the church should spend time, effort, and resources on cruises instead of feeding the needy in the assembly, evangelizing the world, and devoting ourselves to prayer and the word.
      This man has no heart for the unsaved demonstrated in anything he’s doing that I know of.”

      You’ve admitted you don’t know a lot about him, yet you criticize him. How biblical is that?

      You continue,

      “All the teaching that may or may not have happened on that cruise could have been done almost free in a church or over the internet. The teaching that went on wasn’t the point or they would have simply gotten the job done. And, yes, that’s ostentation.
      1 Corinthians 11:20-22 20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
      Thanks to the internet, I’ve come to know Christian folks in other countries. Some of them are pastors, some aren’t. Some don’t have the resources to have much more than a Bible in their library. I am going to start training a young man overseas. I’ll have to send him a webcam and, I suspect, books. Another is a pastor whose congregants could never be trained for ministry if it wasn’t provided free of charge in their local churches.
      Oh, wait! That’s the way they did it in the Bible.
      Phil Perkins.”

      Wow,talk about imposing your values onto another. And that is “biblical”? Does it have to be in the Bible for you to consider it proper that a Christian go on vacation? Frankly, this entire line of argument is a joke. You hammer Dr. White and when confronted your only answer is to impose your values onto the man coming up with the ridiculous attack that he participated in a cruise designed to educate those who wanted to tie in a little education with pleasure, claiming money which you have no right to could have been better spent.

      I guess this means you really have no grounds to attack James White. Look if you really have a problem with Dr. White he attends a church and is answerable to a board of elders. Why not issue a complaint to them. Perhaps you will get an answer that would be biblically based. However, if you do seek to inquire with the church I trust you will have something better than your idea of how people ought to spend their money.

      Paul

    • Phil Perkins said:

      “First, why do I think White practices apologetics without evangelism? Simple. I’ve never heard him ever present the gospel.”

      Sir, I would gladly send you any number of debates that would demonstrate, beyond all question, that you simply have not bothered to listen to me. There are any number of people who will testify to the fact that the presentation of the gospel is a regular element of my debates. In fact, I have often been faulted for the regularity with which I make application to the gospel.

      I truly do not understand what motivates people to speak out of ignorance in such forums. I really do not. Can you explain this to me?

      James White

  14. Paul,
    It’s amazing how much I learn from you, Paul. First, the existence of public education means we ought to send young men to Fuller Theological Seminary. And now, caring for the needy, training young men in the gospel, and devoting ourselves to the Bible and to prayer aren’t biblical values. Turns out they’re just me “imposing my values onto another”.

    I just don’t know how I survived before I had you to straighten me out!

    Seriously, speaking of values being biblical or being made up my me, here is some more reading for you:

    Caring for the needy in our assemblies. James 1:27.

    Training the next generation of believers in the gospel at no charge. Matthew 10:8 and 28:18-20.

    Devotion to Scripture and prayer. Acts 2:42.

    So, these are biblical values. When you accused me of making these values up and “imposing” them “onto another” were you lying, or do you really not know this? These are all Bible verses memorized by little kids. Do you ever study the Bible?

    More seriously, if you’re going to thank me for my comments don’t lie about them. Feigned politeness doesn’t hide what you did.

    First: I didn’t say education is fellowship. You know that, speaking of making thing up. Praying with, sitting under the teaching of, breaking bread with false teachers in an atmosphere of mutuality of faith is fellowship. That isn’t public education. It is what happens in Bible schools.

    Second: I stated in this conversation, in the entire thread, before you commented, one more than one occassion that I haven’t made myself familiar with all White’s work. When I repeat that it isn’t an admission. It’s a reiteration. You lied.

    Apologetics ministry isn’t in Ephesians 4. That’s why you don’t see the word there. I have listened and read White’s stuff. And he does a lot of apologetics divorced from anything else. He even calls it an “apologetics” ministry. Nothing like that is encountered in the Scripture.

    Now, Paul, you have accused me of saying things I didn’t say at all. You’ve accused me of making up unbiblical values and “imposing” them on others arbitrarily. Besides being less than honest, haven’t you criticized me for criticizing White without knowing enough about him? How much do you know about me? If you’ve witnessed me lie or sin in another way, good. You ought to expose it. However, if you’re going to be honest, apply the same rules to yourself as you do to me. It’s hypocritical to criticize only what you know about me while asking me to withold judgment against White if it’s only based on the things I’ve seen.

    No double standards.

    On the Fuller issue being “streatched”, do you know anything about it? (Kind of a double standard again, huh?) Daniel Fuller denied salvation by faith alone and imputational righteousness. That’s the Galatian heresy that Paul said ought to earn anyone, even himself, excommunication and hell. Galatians 1:8-9. Read his Unity of the Bible. It’s theme is that the law is the same as the gospel. Thus the title.

    Ahh, but we have public schools so we ought to send folks to Fuller, not matter what the Bible says about separation from false teachers. I forgot.

    Sorry,
    Phil Perkins.

    • Phil P,
      Thank you for your response,

      “Paul,
      It’s amazing how much I learn from you, Paul. First, the existence of public education means we ought to send young men to Fuller Theological Seminary. And now, caring for the needy, training young men in the gospel, and devoting ourselves to the Bible and to prayer aren’t biblical values. Turns out they’re just me “imposing my values onto another.
      I just don’t know how I survived before I had you to straighten me out!”

      Would you mind pointing out where I indicated or even implied, “the existence of public education means we ought to send young men to Fuller Theological Seminary”? Or, “caring for the needy, training young men in the gospel, and devoting ourselves to the Bible and to prayer aren’t biblical values.” I think those 2 comments would qualify to meet this definition,

      “The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”

      Phil continues,

      “Seriously, speaking of values being biblical or being made up my me, here is some more reading for you:
      Caring for the needy in our assemblies. James 1:27.
      Training the next generation of believers in the gospel at no charge. Matthew 10:8 and 28:18-20.
      Devotion to Scripture and prayer. Acts 2:42.
      So, these are biblical values. When you accused me of making these values up and “imposing” them “onto another” were you lying, or do you really not know this? These are all Bible verses memorized by little kids. Do you ever study the Bible?
      More seriously, if you’re going to thank me for my comments don’t lie about them. Feigned politeness doesn’t hide what you did.”

      Seriously, is there something in those texts which indicate taking a cruise is a “lavish” expense that could be put to better use? Your comments represent a straw-man of my argument; it doesn’t appear as I’m the guy who has an issue with honesty. Common courtesy isn’t “feigning” politeness. Accusing someone of lying when they haven’t isn’t very honest. Misrepresenting what they’ve written isn’t very honest.

      Phil continues

      “First: I didn’t say education is fellowship. You know that, speaking of making thing up. Praying with, sitting under the teaching of, breaking bread with false teachers in an atmosphere of mutuality of faith is fellowship. That isn’t public education. It is what happens in Bible schools.”

      I didn’t say you said education was fellowship; however you did claim there wasn’t a parallel between public education and attending the institution of higher learning, which in this case would be a seminary. I don’t buy your claim that attending the seminary equates to breaking bread and fellowshipping with the faculty.

      You continue,

      “Second: I stated in this conversation, in the entire thread, before you commented, one more than one occassion that I haven’t made myself familiar with all White’s work. When I repeat that it isn’t an admission. It’s a reiteration. You lied.”

      Sure, I lied, I point out you hammer the guy, indeed you questioned his faith, while admitting you didn’t know much of the guy. The fact you made the same statement over and over admitting you haven’t followed the guy doesn’t mean the statement isn’t an admission. But somehow I’ve lied. That is sound logic.

      This is as bad as when asked to provide evidence Dr. White is operating outside of the biblical mandate you come up with the “cruise”.

      You continue,

      “Apologetics ministry isn’t in Ephesians 4. That’s why you don’t see the word there. I have listened and read White’s stuff. And he does a lot of apologetics divorced from anything else. He even calls it an “apologetics” ministry. Nothing like that is encountered in the Scripture.”

      Because the term “apologetics” isn’t included in the text of Eph 4 but teaching which is an element of “apologetics” is, therefore apologetics is divorced from Scripture. Gotcha. I wonder how many other Biblical concepts just got thrown out the window based on that logic?

      You continue

      “Now, Paul, you have accused me of saying things I didn’t say at all. You’ve accused me of making up unbiblical values and “imposing” them on others arbitrarily. Besides being less than honest, haven’t you criticized me for criticizing White without knowing enough about him? How much do you know about me? If you’ve witnessed me lie or sin in another way, good. You ought to expose it. However, if you’re going to be honest, apply the same rules to yourself as you do to me. It’s hypocritical to criticize only what you know about me while asking me to withold judgment against White if it’s only based on the things I’ve seen.
      No double standards.”

      First, I haven’t accused you of saying anything that you haven’t said or as in the case written; at least if I have you haven’t established that fact. The claim of me lying about you admitting you didn’t know much about the guy while pressing the case he is operating outside of the Biblical mandate is nothing but a red herring. I didn’t lie; you admitted, right off the bat that you didn’t know much about the guy but chose to comment on his work. Then when asked to provide cause for you criticism you come up with the fact he participated in a cruise designed to educate folks who can afford to go on a cruise offering the insight their money could have been better spent. What I’ve accused you of is arbitrarily imposing your values which you did when you claimed the cruise was “lavish”.

      So, if you do have something to establish the fact that Dr. White is operating outside of the Biblical mandate lets see it.

      You continue,

      “On the Fuller issue being “streatched”, do you know anything about it? (Kind of a double standard again, huh?) Daniel Fuller denied salvation by faith alone and imputational righteousness. That’s the Galatian heresy that Paul said ought to earn anyone, even himself, excommunication and hell. Galatians 1:8-9. Read his Unity of the Bible. It’s theme is that the law is the same as the gospel. Thus the title.
      Ahh, but we have public schools so we ought to send folks to Fuller, not matter what the Bible says about separation from false teachers. I forgot.”

      Yes, I have a bit of an understanding about Fuller. And no, it isn’t a double standard. The idea that someone would fellowship with a professor thereby placing themselves in submission to a false teacher because they attended a class is the stretch. But, hey, no doubt the representation coming from you will be that I advocated Fuller is a conservative Biblical institution. BTW, please show me the statement I wrote that because we have public schools we should send folks to Fuller. And you accuse me of lying. Pathetic.

  15. Paul,
    ‘I must be perfectly honest with you, gentlemen, and with you members of the board of trustees, I have come to the conviction that the Bible does contain errors.’ That little gem is from Daniel Fuller in 1962, long before White attended.*

    If he’s a reliable apologist, he should have known better. If he did know better, then…

    C. Peter Wagner taught at Fuller, as well. He’s the father of the modern business model churches.

    And here’s a cute little quote “From the Director” in a newsletter from Fuller Theological Seminary:
    “I have been doing a lot of thinking about heretics lately. Heretics are the necessary leaders of the future. Heretics, challenging the status quo, create new movements.”

    Like that?

    The Bible has this to say about heretical new movements in the church: Reject a factious man after a first and second warning–Paul in Titus 3:10. (“Factious man” is “heretical man” or “heretic” in Greek.) Find the above Fuller quote at http://www.fuller.edu/academics/school-of-theology/dmin/dmini/june2009.aspx .

    Oh, yeah. Then there’s Dick Mouw, who seems to love Mormonism so much. Is he still the Big Cheese at Fuller? And Nancey (that’s the correct spelling) Murphy who wishes to follow Daniel Dennett in denying the existense of the human soul apart from the body and still call herself a Christian. She calls her position non-reductionist physicalism. Others call their version Christian physicalism and it’s the coming heresy du jour.

    But, that’s okay because we have public schools.
    Phil Perkins.

    *http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Literature/2006-1B_The_New_Evangelicalism.shtml

    • “If he’s a reliable apologist, he should have known better. If he did know better, then…”

      I will make this brief, as it is obvious Mr. Perkins has not bothered to do any serious research into this subject before expressing an opinion.

      Anyone who has ever listened to me speak about my educational experiences knows that I have often called myself “Fuller’s token fundamentalist.” I was one of the most conservative students in the Phoenix campus. I had to fight the fight constantly, which, in God’s providence, was part and parcel of the training that would set me in such good stead for what the Lord had in store for me down the road. Thankfully, the Phoenix campus was much more conservative than the Pasadena campus. Most of the professors were drawn from Grand Canyon, where I did my undergrad. For example, I had the same Greek professor for seven years running, four at Grand Canyon, three at Fuller. That was nice. But still, I learned all about Barth and the German liberals—as I needed to, since I have since debated men like Crossan and Borg and the like. A great advantage.

      I did not go to Fuller because I wanted to learn liberalism: I went to Fuller because, at the time, it was the only seminary in Phoenix, and I was already committed to a little teeny ministry called Alpha and Omega Ministries. Just that simple.

      I will tell only one story. In an NT class the professor went over the change in Fuller’s position on inerrancy. He took quite some time going over it as part of a discussion of 2 Tim 3:16-17. Then he asked for comments. I put up my hand, and launched into about a ten minute comment on how I, as a believer in inerrancy, often felt like the red-headed stepchild in the classes. I defended my belief in inerrancy, and demonstrated that I had been listening very closely, and fully understood why Fuller believed as it did. When we took a break, a full third of the class approached me in the hallway to thank me for saying what I said, for I had spoken for them as well. Just because a seminary is liberal doesn’t mean there are not good folks studying there.

      I do find it ironic that in a single thread I have been criticized for going to a fully accredited seminary, and for going to a non-accredited seminary. I guess you just can’t please anyone all the time, huh? 🙂

      James

    • James,
      I’ll admit to a lot of ignorance. So, I’ll see you all my ignorance and raise you some dishonesty and two double standards.

      First, be honest. I didn’t criticize you for going to a “fully accredited seminary”. That’s not the issue and you know it. I know you’re a very big wig, but the ninth commandment applies to you as much as anyone else. Your sin is disobedience to God by fellowshiping with false teachers and helping to pay their salaries.

      Also dishonest is your quoting me saying, “First, why do I think White practices apologetics without evangelism? Simple. I’ve never heard him ever present the gospel” as if I’d made a firm claim and didn’t ask for info in the issue. You failed to include that just three sentences later, I said, “I could be wrong, because I don’t follow the man.” You were deceitful when you lifted that. I thanked Phil N. for including video to clear that up and I told him I’d take his word on the topic. You failed to include that, too. Why?

      And we’re supposed to believe, when it comes to attending Fuller, you sinned against God for very good reasons and did God’s work while doing so. I can chalk some of that up to youthful zeal. More on that later.

      Righteousness isn’t served by unrighteousness. God wants obedience over religious service. His servant said, “Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.”

      What’s more important? God or A and O?

      As young, unsaved, and naive as I was when I went to seminary, I asked if the school believed the Bible. Couldn’t you have done the same? There wasn’t a good seminary in Billings, MT. Do I get to sin? Do I get to go to the local liberal Presbyterian school and support them? I could have and I could have been preaching in my local church. Wouldn’t have dreamed of it.

      On the double standards, Paul defended attending Fuller. Either he didn’t know about that particular sewer or he simply wishes to sin. Assuming the best, if he was innocently ignorant, where is your anger at him?

      On another double standard, I’ve given you every benefit of the doubt. I offered the possibility that you didn’t know what the case at Fuller was. I called you “innocent”. I didn’t ridicule you for your innocent ignorance, though it doesn’t speak well of your diligence, since the inerrancy issue was openly known about Fuller and it was a hot issue nationally. It was the natural first question when seeking a school back then. All my friends asked. Is my admitted ignorance for which I asked advice worse than yours which you did’t admit and for which you’ve asked not advice? And if you really believed I claimed for a fact that you didn’t give the gospel, you didn’t do your research, as you say. And it only took reading three more sentences. Chastising yourself?

      Your story about Greek class is nice and if you witnessed for the truth, that’s great. But you were defending the very Bible you were disobeying. And the students in your class who were with you should have been obedient. Likely many were innocently ignorant of the scriptural doctrine of personal and corporate holiness. It hasn’t been taught consistently since the 1960’s. Starting in the 1960’s and 1970’s “separation” became a four-letter word, often caricatured as some white-knuckled oldster telling young folks, “Don’t drink. Don’t dance. Don’t chew. And don’t go with girls who do.”

      I stood, too. My first degree is a bachelor’s in psy. I took a NT class. I stood and received a poor grade and lots of ridicule for it. The other “Christians” in the class didn’t. They were cowards, as it appears your peers were. I was not yet saved and my standing in that class doesn’t excuse any of my sins. Same for you.

      Finally, when you ask why I don’t listen to you, it’s plainly simple. I can’t listen to every fellow who wants my time and ear. Like you, I don’t have time for it all. When I saw the cruise stuff, I simply chose to use my time on someone more serious about obedience to God and more serious about helping folks. All the teaching done on that boat could have been done more efficiently in a common sense way, if that was actually the point.

      These cruises were introduced when I was a kid.

      That’s progress.

      Phil Perkins.

    • James and folks,
      Here’s some “research”. I read this about a year ago. The first president of Fuller was a man (using the term loosely) named Carnell. He was so whacked and so thirsty for the approval of heretics he wrote a long, scholarly book simply to get the attention of Paul Tillich. (Tillich was a heretic popular at the time, for those who might not know.)

      When he didn’t get what he wanted he blubbered the following:

      “After pouring the fruits of my philosophical labor into it (his book) it has received little or no acclaim; at least not in a measure of what I thought it was deserving in light of the effort expended (He deserves fame just because he did it?)…There is a parochialism (separation) in Evangelicalism from which I must withdraw…I want to command the attention of Tillich and Bennett; then I shall be in a better place to be of service to the evangelicals. We need prestige desparately.” Parentheses added.

      It was adolescent the way he wanted fame.

      Fuller was a mess from the beginning. Charles E. Fuller may have been a good man, but the institution was about prestige, not about God.

      1 Corinthians 1:27 “…but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong…”

  16. Hello,

    Here is the White/Barker debate or at least one of them;

    I don’t have time to watch this but hopefully someone will and if someone actually watches this debate please tell us all if White preached the Gospel in this debate.

    Thanks,

    Phil

  17. Hi Paul,

    Below is what you said to Phil Perkins.

    Not to be harsh but your assertion attending an institution of higher learning equates to fellowship doesn’t seem to me to follow. Are you suggesting Christian families should NOT send their kids to public schools? If you are, that doesn’t seem very practical. We are told to be in the world but not be apart of the world, which would seem to me to include institutions of higher learning. Something about being the “salt”, comes to mind.

    The last time I checked public schools in America don’t offer courses in spiritual training nor do I know any parents who have personally sent their children to public schools for such training. So you see there is a distinction being made here. Also please keep in mind Fuller is a PRIVATE university. White not only attended this school but graduated with an M.A in Theology which is posted on his bio.

    http://www.aomin.org/articles/bio.html

    Unless Dr. White was forced to attend Fuller he chose to go to a heretical school for spiritual training. Based on his claims of his research ability and his chastisement towards others who he believes don’t research very well (as evidenced in the link to DL you asked us to listen to) I find it odd that he didn’t know Fuller was a liberal seminary, don’t you?

    I don’t know how much you know about seminaries Paul but in my experience there is plenty of spiritual fellowship to be found. Professors become spiritual mentors to their students. They lunch together. They pray together. They worship together. They discuss scripture and doctrine together. Fuller employs known heretics and it is more then likely that Dr. White was in spiritual fellowship with a heretic during his days at Fuller. That is the sin Mr. Perkins is referring to.

    I believe Phil’s point is a worthy one here. Dr. White is Reformed and his listing of a heretical school on his bio lends credibility to Fuller. While we’re all happy that Dr. White stands for the Reformed faith, he would be the exception of the graduates and not the rule. It would be nice if he would place some sort of disclaimer next to that entry on his bio, don’t you think?

    As far as the vacations go that also goes to Mr. Perkins point. His point? What about those who can’t afford to pay for a cruise? What about those who can’t afford to buy his tapes and books? What about those who can’t afford to pay for archived DL episodes from 2009 and prior? How do the poor get an “edifying education” from Dr. White if they can’t afford it?

    I’ve known Phil Perkins since the day I started this site. In fact he linked to one of my first articles. One thing I can tell you about him is this; He rarely if ever comments on subjects he knows nothing about and I suspect he knows more about Dr. White then he’s letting on. Just because he says he “doesn’t know much” doesn’t mean he doesn’t know anything about the subject. Just thought you should know that.

    Thanks,

    Phil

    • Phil,

      Thanks for weighing in, it’s likely this will come down to another, go figure, but in any event you write,

      “The last time I checked public schools in America don’t offer courses in spiritual training nor do I know any parents who have personally sent their children to public schools for such training. So you see there is a distinction being made here. Also please keep in mind Fuller is a PRIVATE university. White not only attended this school but graduated with an M.A in Theology which is posted on his bio.”

      Right, ever since they took the prayer out of schools. The point is, the fact the teacher doesn’t honor God isn’t grounds to claim Dr. White did anything wrong. I’m not sure the distinction public versus private has to play in the discussion. To attack the guy because of the institution he went to is really a stretch.

      You continue,

      “Unless Dr. White was forced to attend Fuller he chose to go to a heretical school for spiritual training. Based on his claims of his research ability and his chastisement towards others who he believes don’t research very well (as evidenced in the link to DL you asked us to listen to) I find it odd that he didn’t know Fuller was a liberal seminary, don’t you?”

      I think you are enacting a bit of an anachronism. Like I said when I originally weighed in I’m not a Dr. White expert. I don’t know why he went there. I have heard him say that he learned a lot on how to defend the faith while attending through practical application of defending what he believed or something to that effect. Do you know Dr. White’s age when he attended the institution?

      You continue,

      “I don’t know how much you know about seminaries Paul but in my experience there is plenty of spiritual fellowship to be found. Professors become spiritual mentors to their students. They lunch together. They pray together. They worship together. They discuss scripture and doctrine together. Fuller employs known heretics and it is more then likely that Dr. White was in spiritual fellowship with a heretic during his days at Fuller. That is the sin Mr. Perkins is referring to.”

      OK, but why does anyone assume Dr. White did any of that with a heretic? Does Perkins or you claim to know the theological let alone “spiritual” positions of all the faculty at Fuller during the period Dr. White was a student? Are you suggesting the institution the professor teaches at necessarily translates into the beliefs and practices of that professor? I hope not. How do you know his mentor wasn’t George Eldon Ladd? No doubt Perkins will find fault with him. Just because Dr. White took a class from a heretic doesn’t mean he supported, adopted or even condoned the views of the heretic. Perkins is assuming stuff without warrant.

      You continue,

      “I believe Phil’s point is a worthy one here. Dr. White is Reformed and his listing of a heretical school on his bio lends credibility to Fuller. While we’re all happy that Dr. White stands for the Reformed faith, he would be the exception of the graduates and not the rule. It would be nice if he would place some sort of disclaimer next to that entry on his bio, don’t you think?”

      I don’t think Perkins point holds water. The impression Perkins has given me is that he has an axe to grind and is flaying away at the slimmest of examples. But hey, if you think it an issue, I’m sure Dr. White would be open to discussing it. Perhaps you ought to contact him or his board of elders. It would be interesting if one of you two would contact Dr. White and ask for an explanation, novel approach apparently as well.

      You continue,

      “As far as the vacations go that also goes to Mr. Perkins point. His point? What about those who can’t afford to pay for a cruise? What about those who can’t afford to buy his tapes and books? What about those who can’t afford to pay for archived DL episodes from 2009 and prior? How do the poor get an “edifying education” from Dr. White if they can’t afford it?”

      What about people who can’t afford the stuff? They don’t go on the cruise, they don’t buy his books, they don’t gain access to those DL episodes. I suppose they can access all the free stuff he provides like,
      http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4012

      Oh, but Perkins didn’t know about any of that stuff was out there, just the “lavish” cruise. What a hatchet job.

      Look Phil I realize Perkins is a friend of yours. But frankly this rant of his in the blog about Dr. White is a joke. The guy accuses me of lying, when I haven’t. He has misrepresented my arguments from the get go. When questioned for evidence to support his assertions he has none. I point out he is imposing his values on Dr. White by using the term “lavish” and he attempts to employ biblical values that are unrelated in response.

      “I’ve known Phil Perkins since the day I started this site. In fact he linked to one of my first articles. One thing I can tell you about him is this; He rarely if ever comments on subjects he knows nothing about and I suspect he knows more about Dr. White then he’s letting on. Just because he says he “doesn’t know much” doesn’t mean he doesn’t know anything about the subject. Just thought you should know that.”

      Thanks Phil, but Perkins hasn’t impressed me one bit. Why imply Dr. White is operating outside the biblical mandate yet when asked to validate his allegation he comes up with the nonsense about a “lavish” cruise. If you are going to criticize the man, why not 1st get a little background information to support your allegations. Dr. White’s debate with Dan Barker at UoI can be purchased for the nominal fee of something like $10. Is anyone too “poor” to fork over $10 bucks to investigate and see if indeed he is proclaiming the Gospel as he does what every Christian should be doing, which is, “always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you”.

      Look Phil, I think I’m done with this thread and this web-site. I don’t see how it is honoring God to allow folks like Perkins to make unsupported, unwarranted and outright false accusations. Oh, yea and remember Phil because people send their kids to public schools that means they should send them to Fuller. I thought I would write what your buddy accused me of claiming so that at least he would have one quote to back up his claims. Also, by the time your buddy is done, no doubt I will have endorsed Fuller. Go figure,

    • Hi Paul,

      Thanks for weighing in, it’s likely this will come down to another, go figure, but in any event you write,

      Another go figure? Probably.

      Right, ever since they took the prayer out of schools. The point is, the fact the teacher doesn’t honor God isn’t grounds to claim Dr. White did anything wrong. I’m not sure the distinction public versus private has to play in the discussion. To attack the guy because of the institution he went to is really a stretch.

      You can’t possibly be equating prayer in schools (something non voluntary) to voluntarily entering specialized biblical training are you? Wait, you are. Wow! No one has attacked Dr. White for going to Fuller Theological Seminary. What was questioned is whether or not he REPENTED of this. Based on the bio on his website he hasn’t.

      I think you are enacting a bit of an anachronism. Like I said when I originally weighed in I’m not a Dr. White expert. I don’t know why he went there. I have heard him say that he learned a lot on how to defend the faith while attending through practical application of defending what he believed or something to that effect. Do you know Dr. White’s age when he attended the institution?

      He was born in 1963. He received his B.A in 1985 which would have placed him at age 22. He graduated from Fuller in 1989 so he was roughly 22-23 to 28-29 years of age while attending Fuller. Your point would be?

      OK, but why does anyone assume Dr. White did any of that with a heretic?

      I didn’t assume anything. I said “most likely”. Considering that’s the type of things that usually occur at seminaries, and considering the place was founded by a heretic I don’t think its a stretch to “assume” Dr. White did come in contact with a few heretical professors and most likely was in spiritual fellowship with a few as well.

      Does Perkins or you claim to know the theological let alone “spiritual” positions of all the faculty at Fuller during the period Dr. White was a student?

      I don’t nor have I stated such. What I did state clearly was that “most likely” Dr. White came in contact with a heretic and that “most likely” he was involved in spiritual matters with a heretic or two.

      Are you suggesting the institution the professor teaches at necessarily translates into the beliefs and practices of that professor? I hope not.

      Nope. I’m not suggesting any such thing.

      How do you know his mentor wasn’t George Eldon Ladd? No doubt Perkins will find fault with him. Just because Dr. White took a class from a heretic doesn’t mean he supported, adopted or even condoned the views of the heretic. Perkins is assuming stuff without warrant.

      We don’t know but what we do know is this; Fuller was a heretic. If Dr. White paid money to attend a class conducted by a heretic, and I NEVER said he did, then he did support a heretic. I was also clear to state Dr. White was the exception in the fact he didn’t adopt the views of the heretic but if he paid money to attend Fuller then he did support heretics. Phil Perkins has every right to assume those things. The fact the school was founded by a heretic gives him warrant to believe the way he does.

      I don’t think Perkins point holds water. The impression Perkins has given me is that he has an axe to grind and is flaying away at the slimmest of examples. But hey, if you think it an issue, I’m sure Dr. White would be open to discussing it. Perhaps you ought to contact him or his board of elders. It would be interesting if one of you two would contact Dr. White and ask for an explanation, novel approach apparently as well.

      You are entitled to your opinion and so is Phil Perkins. A novel approach apparently? Now who’s making assumptions? How do you know Dr. White hasn’t been contacted? You don’t do you?

      What about people who can’t afford the stuff? They don’t go on the cruise, they don’t buy his books, they don’t gain access to those DL episodes. I suppose they can access all the free stuff he provides like,
      http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4012 Oh, but Perkins didn’t know about any of that stuff was out there, just the “lavish” cruise. What a hatchet job.

      The link you provided is to a single video. I’m sure there are others including the video I posted. I was posing a question Paul. I wasn’t making an accusation.

      Look Phil I realize Perkins is a friend of yours. But frankly this rant of his in the blog about Dr. White is a joke. The guy accuses me of lying, when I haven’t. He has misrepresented my arguments from the get go. When questioned for evidence to support his assertions he has none. I point out he is imposing his values on Dr. White by using the term “lavish” and he attempts to employ biblical values that are unrelated in response.

      You’ve claimed throughout this thread “due diligence” in regards to Phil and his accusations but claiming I’m agreeing with him because he is a friend shows me you don’t practice what you preach. For the record Phil and I have had many a battle on this site over issues yet we have remained friends.

      His wasn’t the only rant directed towards Dr. White on this thread but you seem to have zeroed in on him and left the other “rant” alone. Why is that?

      What arguments has he misrepresented? That you are blessed by Dr. Whites ministry? That you support Dr. White? That you paralleled specialized biblical training with what occurs in the public schools? He didn’t misrepresent those so where has he misrepresented you? Oh, and for Phil stating “we have public schools we should send folks to Fuller” that isn’t a misrepresentation. That’s a different “m” word known as mockery.

      Yes, Phil accused you of lying based on his definition of “admission” vs “reiteration”. He should have shown more charity and owes you an apology which is what I told him via email this evening offline as I couldn’t access my gmail this morning and I only had time to respond to you here.

      As far as biblical values is concerned, he believes “cruises” as a form of ministry is unnecessary and unbiblical and he provided plenty of scriptural support for his beliefs. He believes money spent on these “ministries” is bad stewardship. Had you of done your own due diligence you would have known he not only teaches this but practices these principles in his daily life.

      Thanks Phil, but Perkins hasn’t impressed me one bit. Why imply Dr. White is operating outside the biblical mandate yet when asked to validate his allegation he comes up with the nonsense about a “lavish” cruise.

      You seem to be stuck on “lavish”. What about the other points he’s made? You seem to have passed over those.

      If you are going to criticize the man, why not 1st get a little background information to support your allegations.

      One could say the same about you in regards to your criticism of Phil. You know less about Phil then he does about Dr. White.

      Dr. White’s debate with Dan Barker at UoI can be purchased for the nominal fee of something like $10. Is anyone too “poor” to fork over $10 bucks to investigate and see if indeed he is proclaiming the Gospel as he does what every Christian should be doing, which is, “always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you”.

      There are plenty of “anyone’s” worldwide who are too poor to pay 10 bucks to listen to a debate. I think you should rethink that or maybe re-phrase that as it demonstrates your American naivety.

      Look Phil, I think I’m done with this thread and this web-site. I don’t see how it is honoring God to allow folks like Perkins to make unsupported, unwarranted and outright false accusations. Oh, yea and remember Phil because people send their kids to public schools that means they should send them to Fuller. I thought I would write what your buddy accused me of claiming so that at least he would have one quote to back up his claims. Also, by the time your buddy is done, no doubt I will have endorsed Fuller. Go figure,

      Let me pose a question here.

      If the hyperpreterists were to open up their own seminary would you be opposed to it? Would you do everything in your power to warn others about such a school? If someone were to include that school on their resume without ever renouncing this or at the very least placing a disclaimer next to this listing would you point that out?

      I think you would. That’s what Phil is doing here and I fail to see how my allowing him to do so doesn’t honor God.

      Remember something else. A child being sent by their parents to a public school is one thing. Willingly attending a graduate school as an adult is another. The former doesn’t have a choice. The latter does. Thanks for making that parallel Paul.

      Now my site doesn’t honor God? That’s too much.

      Phil

  18. Paul,
    And feigned politeness isn’t common courtesy. Neither is calling another pathetic. If I’m a liar, call me a liar and tell me in front of the world what I lied about and how that is a lie. You haven’t dealt with the facts or the Scripture I’ve brought up, yet you call me pathetic.

    Out of courtesy, I suppose.

    Just for clarification, if White was unaware of the problems at Fuller, he is an innocent victim on that count. If he did, he’s responsible for fellowshiping with false teachers. And he paid them tuition, a plain violation of II John 10-11 if he was aware of all this. If he was called of God to this rather unusual ministry, I can’t say, “Oh no, He didn’t!” However, it isn’t the biblical pattern. It is part of the pattern of Big Religion and it’s big institutions. And we have no way of knowing outside of the biblical pattern.

    And there’s no doubt the cruise stuff is just junk.

    Apologetic instruction is part of teaching, actually. Not vice versa. Not a big deal, and perhaps you intended to say that.

    And you do need to be more honest in debate. You started by excusing White’s attendence at Fuller because we send our children to public schools. After I pointed out, as Phil N. now has, how awful this illogic is, you defended it as a “parallel” that still stands. Now you deny saying it? All you have to do is read the thread again. It’s there. All over.

    In addition you did say education isn’t fellowshiping, plainly implying I said it was.

    As to care for the needy, training in the gospel, and devoting ourselves to prayer, yes, I DO think that is a higher priority over floating around in a boat. Those first three things are commanded.

    The passage I quoted from Corinthians speaks right to that. Just as the Corinthians came together at the Lord’s Table weren’t really there to worship the Lord Jesus (although that was certainly the pretense, these “ministry” cruises aren’t about ministry. As Paul said, you have houses in which to eat gluttonously and get drunk. Do it there if you must. Don’t show it off to shame the poor among you. So, too, the folks on those cruises have the money to vacation and party. If you want to eat gluttonously do so. If you want to get drunk, do so. And if you want to take a big vacation, do so. Just don’t show it off and call it ministry. It isn’t. God made all things for us richly to enjoy. Just be honest about what you’re doing.

    And finally, Paul, you’ve said nothing about the troublesome characters controlling Fuller. Why not? Are you telling us that you approve of supporting them financially and socially?

    I’ll let you have the final word, unless you bring up something new I feel may call for an answer for the benefit of the readers–if we still have any. LOL.

    Phil Perkins.

    • Hi Phil,

      More importantly then taking my word for it I think Dr. White has explained his situation and himself well here. Its ironic that the very reason Dr. White even went to Fuller (it was locally) is EXACTLY why you started your own school…..ie the local church isn’t doing a good enough job raising up their own leaders so they are forced to do what Dr. White and 100’s of others are forced to do.

      Phil

    • Phil N.
      The local church isn’t an excuse. It’s the reason.

      It’s the reason not to support false teachers (beside all the Scripture has to say about it). At the time of the NT, there was just about nothing outide the local church. The idea was to keep folks like Daniel Fuller, Carnell, et al AWAY FROM the local church and to kill their influence in the local church.

      The NT doesn’t say to shun false teachers unless they’re local. It says to kick them out of our local churches, not support them, not fellowship with them, not break bread with them. They were infecting local churches. That was the issue.

      AND the NT doesn’t say it’s okay to support false teachers as long as you argue with them in public. He went to Fuller and excuses it because he was vocal in defense of the very Scripture he was disobeying by being there. It’s like emailing your love to your wife from the house of your mistress.
      Let’s just obey Scripture.

      But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints–Paul the apostle.

      Which brings up another problem with the debate format. When we give a debate and publicize it, are we aiding the heretic to gain a hearing? Is that the biblical pattern, or is declaration? You have the isolated example of Elijah, so it can be done correctly. Jesus’ debates with the Jewish religionists isn’t an example of that and the difference has to do with separation under the New Covenant and Old Covenant. They are different and there’s no room to go into that here.

      What James White has done here is to admit that he knew, at least at some point. And after he knew it he continued to help pay the salaries, pray with, and break bread with false teachers.

      Oh, yeah, and he called me ignorant. I’ll get to that.

      Phil Perkins.

  19. Phil N. and Paul,
    Here are a couple other things my senile old brain forgot.

    1. Daniel Fuller made his announcement that he abandoned the inerrancy of the Bible in 1962. I was five years old then. I knew about it, though not likely when I was five. It wasn’t a secret in Evangelical churches. It was a scandal. So White was probably aware. Is it possible that he wasn’t?

    Yes, but how likely is that? That’s why I say I don’t trust him. I just see signs that don’t jive with Scripture.

    2. I haven’t contacted him or his church for the same reasons I haven’t contacted Benny Hinn for his word of faith stuff. There’s just one of me and he’s a big boy. He knows what he’s doing and his board knows. It’s okay with them. We can do that and see if they repent or defend.

    Anybody wanna bet?

    Phil Perkins.

  20. Here’s how this religious cruise stuff works. Sheeple A books a $1000 cruise with Mega-celebrity preacher. Sheeple A expenses the cruise as a donation to Mega-celebrities ministry. Mega-celebrity bundles his attendees and gets a deal from cruise company for $500 per. Jesus has nothing to do with it.

  21. Greetings:

    I rarely invest time on web-boards, to be honest, but I was directed to this thread, and when I read Gary Scrimpshire’s post, I had to respond, mainly because I do not even recognize the caricature it attempts to portray as being relevant to me. I have read some amazing things posted on line, but this one ranks right toward the top, I must admit.

    I would like to invite Gary to call the Dividing Line to discuss this post. I really would. Here are the questions I would like him to answer:

    1) Given that I have always correctly identified Columbia Evangelical Seminary in everything I have ever written on the subject, and given that I have never once confused it with any school in Georgia or anywhere else, and given that I have had the President of CES on the Dividing Line, and given that there are articles on my website specifically defending the work I did over the course of a number of years through Columbia (resulting in numerous published works), could you please document where I have *ever* even once allowed “people to think that he got his degree from Columbia Evangelical Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia”? I look forward to this documentation, or, a full and public retraction of the statement.

    2) Have you ever contacted Rick Walston of CES? Have you ever spoken to any current or past students of CES? Are you aware that you are repeating a hit piece posted by a Mormon that was fully refuted long, long ago? Why do you not make reference to the rebuttals?

    3) “I personally witnessed James White’s cutting off of an old man’s microphone simply because the old man said something that James White did not like.” When? Where? Please document this allegation.

    4) Given that I have had a number of people on my program over the years with whom I had debates (Tim Staples earlier this year, for example), and normally give even my most vitriolic callers far more time than they would ever give me, I would love to have you provide examples of your allegations of my “cutting off” people’s microphones on my show. I have hung up on lots of folks over the past 25 years of doing live call-in radio and webcasting: normally after they had been given a very, very long time to express themselves.

    The toll free number is 877-753-3341, or by Skype at dividing.line. The next program is Thursday evening, 4pm PDT (7pm EDT). While I will be reviewing more of the Slick/Sungenis encounter, and specifically dealing with issues relating to James 2 (if we get that far), if the board operator tells me Gary Scrimpshire is on the line, I will gladly take the call. And then everyone else can judge if what Gary has said is true, or if it is not. I look forward to our conversation!

    James White

  22. Wow…

    This is frightening and raises the level of hypocrisy regarding each other to a level I never thought I’d ever witness. Dr. White is now a heretic because he attended seminary at Fuller? I see. That pesky guilt by association rule is still in vogue. Let me see, I attended a California two year junior college in 1970. You can be sure it was LOADED with radicals from every possible persuasion. My dad warned me everyday not to let those communist, hippy, subversive degenerates scramble my brains and good sense. PTL… Jesus kept me safe from all of those unsavoring characters. Then onto SIU, ASU and finally NAU. I’m damned for sure. Public universities are breeding grounds for extreme liberal thought. Despite the heretics, I managed to learn how to do scholarly research and master my subject. I even managed to make a few of my Professors very angry with me when I called them on their goal of brainwashing young minds with liberal socialist agendas. No harm done. I can still spot a liberal at 50 paces.

    Cruises, books, debates, etc… Dr. White has a right to make a living just as any of the the rest of us do. At least he isn’t writing books that are nothing more than propoganda designed to feed the frenzy of fearful Americans. I seem to remember Paul being involved in a few cruises of his own (sorry, I guess being shipwrecked doesn’t count).

    Dr. White is the furthest thing from a heretic that I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been a Christian for more than 40 years. I’m not a James White groupie, but I respect him enormously. As far as I can tell, this entire thread has been a vehicle to belittle a brother based on where he went to school and what that may or may not imply. Honestly, I thought Christians could behave better than this. However, given the state of Christianity today (and the Seminaries they are associated with) people such as the Caners, Norman Geisler, Ankerberg, Falwells, Lumpkins, etc… I really should not be surprised at all. Liars, complicit liars, and even a thief. Perhaps we should all take stock in our own personal relationship with Christ before we start verbally assaulting a man who has done no wrong.

    • It looks as if this Christian isn’t as observant as she should be. I have a new browser and did not see the first part of this thread. I read from about where the YouTube videos of Dr. White and Dan Barker are posted. BTW… Dan Barker is my cousin. So just to prove my point again…. there is no guilt by association. Dan needs serious prayer and a spirit of humility.

      Anyway, to those I probably insulted by not reading the entire thread, my sincere apologies. I should have been much more careful.

    • Hi,

      Yea, you missed all the good stuff. Thanks for coming back and clearing that up. Most people don’t.

      You are absolutely correct. James White is not a heretic. No one said he was and the only reason I posted the vid of your cousin was to make sure folks knew Dr. White does share the gospel message in debates as evidenced in the video.

      Thanks Again,

      Phil

    • Katie,
      White doesn’t have a right to do cruises and call it ministry for God. And he has done other wrong.

      He paid false teachers for their false teaching. That isn’t a sin if one isn’t aware. If you are aware, it’s a very grave sin. It’s the same sin as the false teacher. II John 10-11 says, “If any man comes to you not bearing this doctrine, do not receive him into a house and do not speak to greet him, for a man who speaks to greet him has fellowship in his evil deeds.”

      White admitted he knew and he defended the practice. That’s sinful. His defense of the practice means he hasn’t repented of it. I’ve sinned great sins. I don’t defend them and I take correction.

      Read this:
      2 Corinthians 6:14-17 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord. “And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you.

      If that doesn’t mean what it says, what does it mean?

      And if you think this sort of sin isn’t serious, God promised to be our Father if we practice this separation in the very next verse:

      2 Corinthians 6:18 “And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,” Says the Lord Almighty.

      And the same thing is stated negatively in other places in Scripture:

      Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

      Finally, you called me a hypocrite. Why? A hypocrite is one who espouses a doctrine or ethic he doesn’t practice. I practice this separartion. Look up the definition of the word.

      James, on the other hand, poses as one who defends the Bible and yet defends fellowshiping with and paying those who don’t believe the Bible for spreading their doctrine.

      What do you call that?

      Don’t get angry. Just think it through.
      Phil Perkins.

  23. Phil N. and folks,
    Sorry I haven’t gotten back in a timely fashion. I’ve been busy the last several days and for the first several days, I was waiting for James to try to give some sort of biblical or logical answer to the more serious doubts I mentioned. I looked forward to rebuttal. I thought he would. Anyway…

    This is a great example of what Big Religion does.

    First, James White came here and started by telling us he’s above us. He usually doesn’t take the time to talk to folks like us in little forums like this.

    In other words, “I’m big and you’re not. How dare you hold me accountable.”

    Part of the sickness of Big Religion is an odd sense of self-importance, the idea that God’s kingdom cannot possibly progress without our work. Before I commented on this blog I watched just a few minutes of a video James made concerning the Caner affair. He said it was important to handle the fraud Caner apparently perpretrated because “the world is watching”.

    Uummmm…not really. Ask a hundred folks on the street who is James White. As a guy that goes out witnessing on the street, I can tell you unequivocally, the world doesn’t know and doesn’t care. They watch what happens locally. They watch me because I’m there. Caner’s affair was made public in the local area of Liberty University, but that’s just about it. And you can bet that when I go out this weekend everyone I witness to won’t know anything about James White, Ergun Caner, or Liberty University. We are all ice cubes on a hot freeway. We come. We go. Only God matters. If you wish to matter, obey Him in all things.

    Deuteronomy 13:4 You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.

    Ecclesiastes 8:12-13 Although a sinner does evil a hundred times and may lengthen his life, still I know that it will be well for those who fear God, who fear Him openly. 13 But it will not be well for the evil man and he will not lengthen his days like a shadow, because he does not fear God. (Sinning to further one’s goals, ministry or otherwise, doesn’t work in God’s eyes.)

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. (Even the very important among us.)

    Second, he told us his Big Religion ministry is more important than obedience to God. He said he had to go to Fuller even though he knew what they were about. And this is extremely hypocritical. Posing as one defending the Bible, he justified attending a school which trains young men to be preachers who deny the Bible because he had already started his apologetic mininstry defending the Bible.

    Okaaaay….

    Third, rather than plainly answering the doubts I had about him, he misrepresented what I said on more than one occassion and didn’t even touch anything remotely biblical for a defense on any of the issues. In defense of fellowshiping with false teachers, he said it was okay because (1) he stood up in class and (2)he was already involved in his ministry.

    He didn’t want to get into any of the biblical passages pertinent to the subject, which brings me to…

    Fourth, he really expected not to have to answer the most serious issues. He didn’t touch the cruise matter at all. He defended attending Fuller with just a story and an excuse, no biblical answer at all. Some name calling and throwing the weight of his notoriety around should be enough and if you don’t accept that, you’re full of “ignorance” even if he has to be dishonest about what you said to make that case.

    Fifth, he did something I’ve witnessed among the biggies. They monitor the web either through their friends or googling themselves. Why? Does James care that much about God’s reputation? He gave his approval to a school that trains folks to doubt God. But if you doubt James, he’s on the case.

    Finally, what happened here can tell us something about ourselves.

    First, when White came here and excoriated us for doubting him, he played on the fact that many of us would wilt just because of who he is. Paul, on the other hand, told us to excommunicate him and count him unsaved if he took up a divergent Gospel. Galatians 1.

    The reason James felt free to play on his fame and power is simple. It works.

    Here’s proof of our sin of partiality (and, yes, I have to fight myself to keep from doing it, too): If Joe Blow from Kokomo, Idaho came here and claimed to be a Christian in Christian ministry, but he endorsed the sin of physical adultery, he’d be told he’s in sin by just about everyone here. Such a man isn’t fit for ministry of any kind. White committed spiritual adultery. He defends it. And many here would never say he is unfit for the pulpit.

    Why not? Cuz he’s a biggie. There’s no other reason. No one here can name a sound biblical reason. Jude 4.

    If you excuse James, you have to excuse the money grubbing of Benny Hinn, and the spiritual adultery of Rick Warren.

    No double standards.

    Second, did you notice that almost no Scripture was quoted? Why? We make sweeping charges and defenses all sans Scripture. The apostles and Jesus never did that. I already showed White did that here, but just about everyone else did, as well. And notice that many here don’t pay attention when Scripture is quoted. Paul scorned Scripture about biblical priorities and White ignored the Scripture altogether. This is the new “normal”, I guess.

    It ought not be.

    Fear God, not man.
    Phil Perkins.

  24. One clarification for Phil N. and Katie,
    I didn’t call White a heretic…yet. If he really does contend that the sin of supporting false teachers is okay, he’s a heretic, just like a man who says it’s okay to pay murderers to kill the body.

    This doctrine is forgotten today, but it’s the heresy that gave birth to the New Evangelical movement. As little as 100 years ago, he’d not be allowed in an Evangelical pulpit unless he repented or didn’t know.

    Paying those who kill the soul is a sin.
    Phil Perkins.

  25. Hi Phil P,

    I’m going to highlight my concerns with your three comments into one.

    Fourth, he really expected not to have to answer the most serious issues. He didn’t touch the cruise matter at all. He defended attending Fuller with just a story and an excuse, no biblical answer at all. Some name calling and throwing the weight of his notoriety around should be enough and if you don’t accept that, you’re full of “ignorance” even if he has to be dishonest about what you said to make that case.

    How do you know what Dr. White expected by coming here? Why should he “touch the cruise issue”? In the matter of whether or not White preaches the Gospel it was you who stated “if” he preaches the gospel. How many times have you listened to Dr. White before you uttered that statement? The reality is you are ignorant of Dr. Whites overall ministry especially if you have to ask if he preaches the gospel or not.

    Fifth, he did something I’ve witnessed among the biggies. They monitor the web either through their friends or googling themselves. Why? Does James care that much about God’s reputation? He gave his approval to a school that trains folks to doubt God. But if you doubt James, he’s on the case.

    “Paul” contacted Dr. White Phil. They are not friends. I also contacted Dr. White as well but haven’t heard a peep out of him. Your assumptions regarding Dr. White are wrong in this case. For the record I’m very disappointed in Dr. White’s response to the Fuller situation. So much so that I removed his link from my blogroll and yes by his refusal to say anything he does give the impression that Fuller is ok.

    Second, did you notice that almost no Scripture was quoted? Why? We make sweeping charges and defenses all sans Scripture. The apostles and Jesus never did that. I already showed White did that here, but just about everyone else did, as well. And notice that many here don’t pay attention when Scripture is quoted. Paul scorned Scripture about biblical priorities and White ignored the Scripture altogether. This is the new “normal”, I guess.

    While you quoted Scripture what you failed to provide us with is any evidence to support your assertions, insinuations and opinions on this thread. What proof did you have that Dr. White didn’t “give the gospel”before you made that statement. The answer is none. Deuteronomy 13 also states the criteria for making these charges;

    If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

    You haven’t done any of those highlighted items have ya?

    Finally, you called me a hypocrite. Why? A hypocrite is one who espouses a doctrine or ethic he doesn’t practice. I practice this separartion. Look up the definition of the word.

    She apologized for the hypocrite comment and she didn’t name you personally. She missed half of the thread and commented before knowing enough facts to make a righteous judgment.

    Here’s what I need you to do from here on out. While you give plenty of convicting Scripture you also need to give more then your opinions and “I’m not sure’s” before making these types of comments. A little bit of evidence would be nice.

    For the record I have removed the link to Dr. White’s ministry from my blogroll and am basically finished listening to him. I’m certainly not afraid of him and if he’d like to come back here and discuss the Fuller issue he is more then welcome to do so.

    Thanks Dude,

    Phil

  26. Hello All,

    Mr. Scrimpshire has asked me to remove the comment he made regarding Dr. James White. He has asked me to state that he apologized to Dr. White and to make this part of the public record.

    I would also like to apologize to Dr. White and Mr. Scrimpshire for allowing the comment to see the light of day. It was wrong of me to allow the unsubstantiated comments. Because of that comment (and others) I have enacted a new comment policy that hopefully will prevent this sort of thing from ever happening again.

    Thanks,

    Phil

  27. Calvinism is vain philosophy. A belief in unconditional election perverts the written word of God, and quenches the Holy Spirit.

  28. Hi Joseph,

    Thanks for your opinions Joesph however you’ll need more than the standard “their wrong because I said so” line to convince me that “Calvinism is vain philosophy” and how “a belief in unconditional election perverts the written word of God, and quenches the Holy Spirit”….

    I look forward to your complete scriptural refutation of “Calvinism”…….

    Have a nice weekend!

    Phil

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