The Role of The Christian Apologist

The last 10 days or so have been interesting, haven’t they? It’s amazing to me the lengths some of these so called and self appointed “discernment ministries” will go to when they have an agenda. Recently two misguided souls and one unaccountable “ministry” has decided to accuse me of “endorsing” Kenneth Copeland with a statement I made about Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen and Paula White. The statement?

I stated these folks are true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I can see some of you gasping for air right about now, and in that immediate context I’d be gasping as well…….

The only problem? That isn’t all I said but that doesn’t seem to matter much to folks that have an agenda. These types of folks only seem to exist to condemn and to tickle the itching ears of other people like them.

You know the type. The folks who demand accountability from others yet refuse to be held accountable…..the people who cry and pout when someone makes an accusation against them without citing their sources yet turn around and do the very same thing and call it “discernment”.

Let’s go back to that statement that was taken out of context before I get completely sidetracked……

The Pilgrim” makes an interesting statement on his “bio”;

Left the apostate teachings of the word of faith movement (after leaving Roman Catholicism) and am now a Christian. If you still want an idea of my leanings, I must say I can be compared closest to that of the Reformed faith, although I don’t necessarily agree with everything it holds. My family and I also hope to one day be full time missionaries in the country of Liberia, Africa. (source)

During his time in the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Word of Faith movement I have to wonder if he felt, during those times, he was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ”? I’m not talking about what he claims now but how he felt and what he believed then. If he was claiming then he was a Christian then I think its safe to assume that he believed he was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ”, right?

What about Roderick Edwards? When he was a Hyper Preterist for 15 years did he believe he was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ”? Forget about what he claims now but if he called himself a “Christian” during any part of that time, and he did, then I would think the answer would be yes, right? Edwards believed he was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ” and supposedly left because he discovered the Jesus he was a “true believer in” wasn’t the Jesus he claims to be following now.

Brian Simmons is 35 years old and by his own admission he has spent 29 years in one heretical movement or another, specifically 27 years as a Roman Catholic and 2 years as a Hyper Preterist. During those years did he believe he was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ”? I would think so and if he’s honest he would admit he believed as such if he identified himself as a Christian that is.

During the four year period (1988-1992) when I was putting 3John 2 on steroids I fully believed that I was a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ” and no one could convince me otherwise because I believed that I was following Him and like Copeland I was making big money which furthered my beliefs that I was not only following Jesus but that he was blessing me just like 3John 2 said it would (or what I wanted to believe it meant).

What about you reading this who may have been following some form of heresy. Did you believe you were a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ? Forget about what you know now but how and what did you believe then? If you identified yourself as a Christian during that time then you were probably convinced that you were a “true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ”, right?

Now, read what I said and I will highlight in bold the part some seem to want to ignore about Kenneth Copeland and the others;

Let me fill you guys in on a little somethin’ here. Ken Copeland is a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. So is Fred KC Price, so is Paula White, so is Joyce Meyer, so is Joel Osteen. They are all true believers in the lord Jesus Christ. For sure. They for sure are. . . . Their Jesus isn’t exactly the same Jesus as the one in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in their Jesus; especially Ken Copeland. Ken Copeland has almost a billion dollars. That tells you that he does believe in his Jesus. He has a strong belief in his Lord Jesus Christ. See, his Lord Jesus Christ gives him money. His Lord Jesus Christ has blessed him beyond all belief. . . . Now when he stands before the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, he might get a different—he might have a different opinion, he might learn something differently than what he’s been—what he’s believed in. And he might get a different idea of where his errors were and are, but to say that he’s not a true believer is just an asinine statement.

Why can’t Kenneth Copeland believe he is a “true believer in Lord the Jesus Christ”? The Pilgrim did. Edwards and Simmons did, I did and you who are reading this have probably all believed in a different Jesus like Copeland does. The difference between us and Copeland? Someone was able to reach us and demonstrate that the Jesus we thought we were “true believers” in wasn’t the Jesus of the Bible.

Somehow amidst the agendas and the condemning of Phil Naessens that point was missed as well as was the general them of that portion of the podcast.

Our job as Christian apologists isn’t to tell others what they believe. Our job as apologists isn’t to put words into others mouths or to twist statements to build our apologetic defenses. Our job as Christian apologists is to show people, with a Bible in hand, WHY the Jesus they are true believers in isn’t the Jesus of the Bible. Those who resort to tricks, assumptions, over-arching premises and placing words in others mouths as well as lying about others are not Christian apologists.

I’ll leave you with some Scripture to ponder……

2Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2Timothy 2:24-26

And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

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18 thoughts on “The Role of The Christian Apologist

  1. I posted a comment on their web site under the US section. Waiting for it to be posted….waiting……..waiting…….waiting.

    Hopefully it doesn’t conflict with the “Rules of Engagement”.<-(What kind of silliness is that!)

  2. Rod,
    You write this,

    Ugh so Phil Naessens is STILL over on his website site trying to convince himself and his followers that he didn’t say Ken Copeland is a “true believer” in Jesus Christ. Phil tries to play the perspective game, trying to tell us he just meant that of course Copeland et al THINK they are “true believers” in Jesus just as we did when we were hyperpreterists. Here’s the problem, let’s quote Phil’s statement, exactly as he posted it so he can stop with his accusation of “twisting” his words”
    http://preteristnews.com/2010/03/22/showboat-approved-by-goc/

    Although Phil clearly stated this, “Their Jesus isn’t exactly the same Jesus as the one in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in their Jesus;”

    Rod, why are you playing games? Move on Rod, you are making yourself look bad.

    • Hi,

      Edwards is so desperate its pathetic….he’ll do or say anything to make whoever he dislikes look bad and he’s been caught once again.

      Listen to Paul Rod…..you better move on and remove my copyrighted material from your website….

      Phil

  3. Hi All,

    The Pilgrim has chimed in and its a doozy…..you can read it here;

    http://defendingcontending.com/meet-the-defcon-team/#comment-19902

    From the email I sent the Pilgrim over the statement he made that I endorsed Kenneth Copeland;

    Are you Reformed? Who is your pastor? What’s the name of your church? What is the name of your denomination? The reason I ask is you are promoting libelous statements against me on your website and purposely misrepresenting me and what I’ve publicly stated in regards to Kenneth Copeland without publicly sourcing what I actually said.

    Let’s work this out like Brothers, Ok?

    Notice I said “like brothers”……lets see what the Bible says….

    Mat 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

    I skipped this part and went straight to step 2.

    Mat 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    I brought with me one of the men I’m accountable to and rather then dealing with us he went to the “airwaves” and continues to claim I endorse Kenneth Copeland. To his credit he did finally link to the source..

    Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

    He hasn’t listened and refuses to tell us privately who he is accountable to which is my MAIN “beef” with DefCon and he’s proven why…..now it looks like he’s refusing to listen to the church so we have no choice but to treat this man as a pagan or tax collector.

  4. Phil,

    It seems you aren’t the only one who has concerns about this “The Desert Pastor”.

    http://blatzkrieg.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/putting-the-rank-in-crank/

    Misrepresenting others seems to be a common theme at team DefCon. I suppose the pajama wearing “Pilgrim” will now claim I loathe them as well.

    One more thing Phil. This Roderick is a weirdo and doesn’t realize how stupid he looks trying to tell you what you believe which was the whole point of this article. He’s the poster child for immature behavior. Where do you find these unique individuals Phil?

    • Hi Mark,

      This is an interesting statement;

      It seems the Team DefCon chaps reside in some sort of parallel universe where up is down and they wield the power to create realities – where none existed before – with a mere blog post.
      DP is either colossally ignorant or he is a liar and a slanderer.  He unbelievably construes Piper’s unwillingness to say in this brief video clip that Wright “preaches a different gospel” (and therefore his unwillingness to proclaim Wright a capital-H-Heretic and cast him into the fires of hell) as an endorsement of NPP.  In what kind of logic-free world does that work?  John Piper is arguably the most visible and well known critic of NPP! Good grief…
      This is truly rank stuff.  This is dishonest and slanderous.  This is sin.  Boys, you’re playing with hellfire.  Please stop.

      This “Desert Pastor” is something else. Here’s a “Pastor” putting words in the mouth of a famous pastor in order to tear the man down and doing so anonymously. He’s a coward Mark. That’s the reason I refer to him as “The Desert Poser.

      Phil

  5. I have read your position on how to treat an apostate believer. Again, I will state Phil in all due respect you are all wet and without an ability to divide the truth properly!!

    Teachers are cut and judged from a different cloth and should be named and called out for if they do not repent from preaching their evil doctrines such as the false teachers you mentioned above, they should be rebuked and cast out of the body of Christ for which they do not conform.

    It’s called being a watchman phil..and after reading your statements I believe you are well heard and you do protect the false teachers and you are without a proper understanding of how to deal with a false teacher and what doctrines are violated and in this case vilely violated from the teachers you protect.

    Bearing false witness you say does not fly around your website, well let me remind you in the name of the truth I stand for that protecting wolves and giving them safe havens such as this website does not fly with the Lord of Truth or myself because of that fact!!

    I would suggest you get some training in the truth and in this case much training before you take the position of protecting the wolves and rebuking the lambs!!!

    You are a shame to the truth…and as the II and III John proclaim those who give Godspeed to the false teachers are a partaker of their evil deeds!!

    And with that dear sir I rebuke you in the name of the Lord!! I suggest you do not preach, for then your rebuke will be the same as those you protect and promote!!

    Tim Smith xxx xxx xxxx call me sometime partner and let me educate you on a few things..

    • Hi Tim,

      Unlike Lighthouse Trails, Apprising and DefndingContending, I publish comments that are contrary to what I present…….

      Tim Smith
      I have read your position on how to treat an apostate believer. Again, I will state Phil in all due respect you are all wet and without an ability to divide the truth properly!! I couldn’t help but notice your rebuke lacked the same. Are you related to Warren Smith from Lighthouse trails?

      I couldn’t help but notice your rebuke lacked any Scripture whatsoever. Are you related to Warren Smith from Lighthouse trail? It appears to me you don’t listen or read well because I spelled out my position as if the reader was 5 years old…..sorry you missed it.

      Tim Smith
      Teachers are cut and judged from a different cloth and should be named and called out for if they do not repent from preaching their evil doctrines such as the false teachers you mentioned above, they should be rebuked and cast out of the body of Christ for which they do not conform.

      I’ve called out Kenneth Copeland and his ilk plenty of times and have rebuked them……did you look around this site?

      It’s called being a watchman phil..and after reading your statements I believe you are well heard and you do protect the false teachers and you are without a proper understanding of how to deal with a false teacher and what doctrines are violated and in this case vilely violated from the teachers you protect.

      A watchman eh? Really Who am I protecting Tim? What leads you to believe I don’t know how to deal with falsehood? Since you’ve already missed the obvious please be specific?

      Bearing false witness you say does not fly around your website, well let me remind you in the name of the truth I stand for that protecting wolves and giving them safe havens such as this website does not fly with the Lord of Truth or myself because of that fact!!

      You are still upset because I stopped you from calling Jay Bakker a homosexual…..you would be wrong there Tim. He’s slept with more girls then you will ever meet…..you should be thanking me for keeping you from lying……but that is the LightHouse Trails method right? You know, the “I say it therefor it is” method you folks employ, right Tim?

      I would suggest you get some training in the truth and in this case much training before you take the position of protecting the wolves and rebuking the lambs!!!

      I have some training Tim. Care to share where you received yours? From what I’ve seen I’d ask for my money back because you argue like Warren Smith…which is why scholars ridicule him and your ilk.

      You are a shame to the truth…and as the II and III John proclaim those who give Godspeed to the false teachers are a partaker of their evil deeds!!

      Really? That’s your opinion. I’ll save mine until I’ve run out of an argument but fortunately I don’t need to really make one with you ……and I don’t need ad hominems to defeat your arguments Tim like you seem to need………

      And with that dear sir I rebuke you in the name of the Lord!! I suggest you do not preach, for then your rebuke will be the same as those you protect and promote!!
      Tim Smith xxx xxx xxxx call me sometime partner and let me educate you on a few things..

      Thanks for the rebuke Tim but unfortunately I don’t have a desire to spend a 1.50 euro a minute to listen to your “logic”, but you can reach me at 0030 693 644 4218……..if you are serious that is

      Thanks,

      Phil

  6. Christian apologist Sandy Simpson
    informed me around 2002 that he has seen many people delivered from the
    “Faith Movement” but very few of its
    leaders.

  7. Hi Tim Smith,

    I’ve deleted both of your comments…..such talk, and on Resurrection Sunday no less…..the Lighthouse Trials folks would be very happy with you I’ll bet.

    You have my number. Lose your smart mouth and your hunting lodge mentality because its not befitting a Christian…..

    Phillip

  8. Hi Tim;

    You stated;

    Here is your dot and tittle Phillip..call me if ya got the guts..I doubt you will for you appear to be a little geek behind a key board lording it over others because ya simply got no backbone in the Lord or otherwise…

    I just attempted to call ya there partner and left a message. Guess your “righteous judgment” of me was a tad bit off eh Tim? Let’s see who the “geek behind the keyboard without backbone really is eh partner?

    Phil Naessens

  9. Hello Phil,

    I first want to say I am impressed that you actually had the guts to call me at my residence…I found that action in and of itself admirable that one you cared enough to set a record straight about yourself and our momentary battle on your forum.

    I am blessed to know you are of the same mind, spirit and God I believe in and worship. Thank you for caring enough to clarify and settle issues that were not clear as we were blogging to each other on your forum.

    I will state after our hour long phone call that your calling in the Lord is sure and true and as well have more than a very good handle on the false gospel and teachers of today. I support you and your ministry 100 percent and would donate to your cause in a heart beat!!

    The work of an apologist is a lonely road but without that needed ministry many would, will and are falling to prey to another gospel and jesus which leads to great destruction and even Hell.

    In closing my experience on this forum and site is that there is much misunderstanding when it comes to writing one’s views versus having the ability to verbalize and clarify a statement that maybe taken the wrong way, causing even more misunderstandings to arise as it was with me when I came on to voice my views.

    God bless you Phil!! Thanks again for the phone call today and taking the time to share your heart and your love for the true Christ and defending the core doctrines of our faith..I am looking forward to gleaning and learning from your ministry and the connections you have with the true workman in Christ’s service!!

    Bless you Brother!!

    Tim : )

    • Hi Tim,

      I’m glad we could work this out!

      As I explained on the phone (and thanks for your patience with my horrible Internet connection) Apologetics is a ministry and ministry is all about service to the Body. Most of the people I fight with are only in “apologetics” as a way to cover up what really motivates them….revenge. Its sad but true.

      Thanks for taking the time to listen. Very few people are interested in listening anymore which is sad.

      Thanks for taking the time to comment here as well. I appreciate you taking the time to do this and not let people reach their own conclusions or rely on me to make the report!

      God Bless!

      Phil

    • All is cool with me on that level as well, which is simple communication..iron sharpens iron, and chrisitians above all are called to contend for the faith especially among us so we remain united in truth not in Christ’s with different meanings or definitions of the Nature of Christ and the who do you say that I am rhetorical question Jesus had stated to Peter and the disciples.

      Phil, I took to heart your question to me regarding my experience in the charismatic movement or the acceptance of it at an earlier stage in my life..

      You stated that the jesus I served and served probably changed through growth. My answer or response to this or comment is that the Jesus I served from day 1 up to now is the very same Jesus, however what has changed is my understanding of those who I once endeared as true believers such as Hinn has changed because I see more clearly what jesus they served without my understanding or knowledge that it was a different jesus even though they profess it is the same.

      I have grown in the sense of testing the truth among the leaders of our camp to determine if they are in the faith..For most christian leaders will state they believe in the core doctrines, such as the trinity, that jesus is 100 perecent god and 100percent man, that he is coming back to rule, that faith in christ alone is the only in christ and none other, and of course the written word is all true and inpspired by the Spirit of God.

      I was willing to stop there in the test however if not tested further one can miss that many ministers are truly false and need to be contested..such as TD Jakes who believes in a different trinity(oneness doctrine) or kenneth copeland who states jesus died spritually and the price was paid in hell versus on the cross where Jesus said it was finished there..

      This is what I am stating where my contention comes in..I personally dont’ think the Jesus of the bible changes in the growth of the believer neither should it for the princples of the truth are made for children…and the core doctrines are taught to children..

      The hard camoflaged deception is where the ministers of the false gospels re-define the terminology of our beliefs making it difficult to see they are preaching another christ, gospel, message, testament and have adhered to another spirit by which is proper to announce in public for their message is in public.

      Again, not necessarily to rebuke with harshness, but however correct and discuss this matter..then if the leader chooses not to adhere to the simple core doctrines of our faith, then he is deemed as uninited in the cause for contending for the truth which is a command to all believers, whether in the pulpit or pue.

      I appreciate your dialogue Phil and hope for more discussions with you..You have a very interesting life story and your testimony is very unique as well…Never a boring moment!!

      Thank you again for offering for me to get in touch with your apologetics friend and teacher for which I am very excited to do. I cannot find him on your website however..Could you re-direct me again..

      Bless you much!!

      Tim

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