Ted Haggard Accuser Mike Jones: “I made it all up”!

This is making the rounds and I’m happy to report this news. For those of you that don’t know Ted Haggard encouraged me at a time when I was going to shut this site down. Please see the following link and be advised the language is a bit strong!


http://chazonator.blogspot.com/2010/02/gay-activist-outs-mike-jones-who-says-i.html

Hat Tip to Alan Hawkins!

Update 03/12/2010

If you are here due to a referal from Roderick Edwards please listen to the following podcast or search this site by entering “Roderick Edwards”.

http://theologytoday.podbean.com/2010/03/05/exposing-the-fantasy-and-fiction-of-roderick-edwards-facts/

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47 thoughts on “Ted Haggard Accuser Mike Jones: “I made it all up”!

  1. I wouldn’t be so quick to exonerate Haggard based in this brief email from Jones. Sounds to me like Jones is frustrated that Haggard is back in the limelight and profiting from his experience. I do not doubt that Jones embellished his story – probably embellished a great deal but Haggard admitted to buying drugs from this guy. He admitted to physical contact with this guy on more than one occasion.

    Let’s also not forget the church employee who was paid off to go away and never talk about his illicit relationship with Haggard. I have heard a recorded telephone conversation between Haggard and this young man and there is little doubt that they engaged in some type of inappropriate behavior.

    I’m sure Haggards supporters will claim complete vindication over this but based on what he admitted to he should never again have a leadership position in the body of Christ

    • Steve, I understand why it’s hard for you to work with this issue. It’s so important for you to stick with the facts:

      1. I haven’t asked you or anyone else to exhonorate me. I have said in multiple national news and talk programs, and in a large number of churches, that I am guilty. I think all the Mike Jones comment does is it helps people hear me when I say that I am guilty, just not guilty of everything that I’m accused of. As I’ve said before, I am grateful for Mike Jones doing what he did, he just expanded a 5% truth into a 95% story. Now that’s being adjusted as he’s being confronted with, strangely enough, gay activists who realize he’s been lying.

      2. I was not involved with nor did I endorse anyone being paid for silence. Grant Haas told me he needed $30,000 to go to college. I offered to help him get it without his life becoming a big public issue, and he said that he thought he could get it from the church insurance company. He did that, and more, with a contract that was developed by the church long after my departure. I am a strong first ammendment guy, which means I have never believed that anyone who wanted to speak out publicly should be prevented from doing so. Grant decided to speak out just before “The Trials of Ted Haggard” was released because he thought I was going to claim victimization in that video. I do, though, regret taking his call the time he recorded us. I had been advised not to do that but I wanted to try to be kind.

      3. Neither Grant Hass nor I have ever been attracted to one another physically or ever claimed that there was any physical relationship between us at all. Let me assure you, I took four lie detector tests all demonstrating that I did not have a three year affair with Mike Jones, had not had sexual contact with anyone in the church other than my wife, and had never groomed anyone in the church for sexual contact but my wife. Your speculation here is just that, speculation. And it’s not helpful. Please, this issue has been so clouded by that type of speculation that people have to struggle to see the facts. You are wise enough to know that speculation in something like this is not helpful to anyone. I have acknowledged an “inappropriate relationship” with Grant, but it was not sexual, it was from my point of view a peer relationship instead of a more distant, professional relationship which would have been more appropriate. I am sorry for not being the pastor I should have been for Grant.

      3. I already do have a leadership position in the body of Christ again. In our nation, religious leaders are chosen by the followers, not by church or government institutions. Though I don’t think I’m deserving for leadership, it is happening. I lead well attended pastor’s meetings across the country, and many of the churches I speak at have record attendance when I’m there. Gayle’s book is on the New York Times bestseller list. All of this is because people chose to follow those they believe will encourage and assist them. I am honored to serve when asked.

      I hope this helps. Thank you so much for writing.

  2. As a Haggard supporter I do not claim complete vindication by that blog. But Jones has been called out and he did not answer the call. Of course Ted is not innocent. He does not claim innocents but let the truth about his real guilt be known. As for future ministry that is another debate. But I am heartened to see a gay activist supporting Ted.

  3. Hi,

    I invited Mr. Haggard to come here to set the record straight and I thank him for showing up to do so. Please remember that he is not obligated to answer anyone’s questions or comments but you are free as always to ask in a cordial respectful tone otherwise your comment will be deleted.

    It’s late for me. Good night!

    Phil

  4. Ted,

    When I said you should never again have a leadership position I was basing that on the Biblical standard found in 1Timothy 3. Your standard, based on “the people have spoken” is only biblical in the sense that it fulfills 2Timothy 4:2

    I have no problem with you making a living by putting on motivational seminars, encouraging people and tickling their ears with a feel good message. But please do not deceive yourself by thinking what you are doing has anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    You should also remember that large crowds and worldly accolades may not be indicative of Gods approval of your life or ministry. Most of Israel followed Saul who was the people’s choice rather than David who was Gods choice. The prophets of Baal drew the biggest crowds in the days of Elijah. The broad path always seems right, until you get to the end.

    • Hi Steve,

      Its always good to see you here!

      1Timothy 3 is in the present tense otherwise how can any of us fulfill the qualifications?

      While Ted considers himself in “leadership” its not the same as that of an “overseer” “deacon” or whatever. He is going to where he is invited by those who are qualified (per 1Timothy 3) to make those requests so I suppose we should be asking those who have requested him to speak why they are?

      Phil

  5. Well aren’t we all one big happy family. This is why private matters need to remain PRIVATE and not exposed for all the world to bloody see.

  6. I am very impressed with Ted’s response to Brother Steve’s comments. I am a regular reader of Apostasywatch, and am a Facebook friend.My testimony is similar to Steve’s, except that at one time, I’m so sad to say,I was a Word-faith preacher. I have never been a supporter of Ted, especially since Jesus Camp, and am diametrically opposed to anything having to do with C.Peter Wagner and his NAR. I do, however, believe that the “Gifts and calling of God are without repentance,” and that ted was a better man than he was before this. I love you, Brother Ted, and thank you for keeping the Faith.
    Psychology will not deliver you, but the Finished Work of Jesus Christ. His Atoning Blood and Faith in Christ Crucified!

  7. Mr Lumbley

    Can a person who has violated those passages ever be qualified again? Is I Tim. 3. a ‘one and done’ deal? If not be a little more precise.

    As for Ted’s other comments, the truth is that in our free market culture of church life people choose to go to church where they will and anyone who wishes and can gather people can become a pastor. Do you have a proposal to purge that system? Ted Haggard is hardly guilty of being on the Biblical broad path that leads to destruction. He has long since re-established fidelity to the Lord and to his wife.

    And peace to you sir concerning your zeal for the Lord and his church.

    alan

    • One of the qualifications for leadership in 1Tim3 is that the person have a good reputation with those outside the body of Christ. Mr Haggard does not meet this qualification. He may be able to regain a reputation at some point in the future but at this time he clearly does not meet the Biblical standard.

      Having said that I do not mean that he can never be used of God. If he has truly repented he can surely be restored as a member of the body and I fully support that but that does not mean that he has a right to resume a leadership position.

      All of us have a calling from the Lord. The religious system has distorted this fact by perpetuating a two tiered system known as clergy and laity. This is the Nicolaitan error Jesus said he hated in Revelation 2 & 3. Because this ungodly system is so entrenched in our churches, it is assumed that if you are “called” then you must be in the clergy class and nothing can ever change that.

      The fact is we are all called to serve in some capacity. We are all called as kings and priests to do the work of the ministry. Mr. Haggard can certainly still be used of God and in that respect his gift and calling is without repentance but that does not mean he has a perpetual right to stand in a pulpit and purport to lead others.

      The fact that so many on here defend this idea that he must serve because he is “called by the people” indicates how far you have fallen from the biblical standard. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 is exactly what happens when the people choose.

      For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      Those who are the true leaders of Gods people are men who are called and approved by God. Mr. Haggard fails that test. By his own admission his calling is not from God but from the people. He is not approved by God because he cannot meet the biblical standard for leadership set forth in the word. As such any attempt by him to assume a mantle of leadership will never bring forth true fruit and ultimately will bring destruction upon him and those who choose to follow him.

  8. When I first saw Jimmy Swaggart fall is when I learned to take my eyes off of man.All you have to do is watch TBN and realize these who are so called of God are really only serving themselves. Being called of God in any capacity is like Salvation only you and God know the truth. We can justify many things but taking the Lords name in vain is not one of them.

    • The difference is Swaggart was restored and is moving forward and he’s still outspoken on many issues. One thing I’ve learned about life is this, we all make mistakes, God only knows how many times ALL of us are going to act stupid in a moment of doubt, but if we strive for the cross he has promised us that he will deliver us in that time of need. Paul struggled with sin, he made it clear that he did certain things that he knew was wrong, completely understood that his struggle was flesh and sin, but yet Paul also realized that the cross was where he found his comfort.

      My point is, Haggard, Swaggart, Hinn and so on and so on is examples of one thing and one thing only – FLESH. This is what happens when flesh wins over it becomes and is due to sin.

      I want to know one thing, are any of us better or more capable than Haggard to overcome in life’s most darkest hour? Can Steve say that he is able to withstand a moment of doubt and possible failure, are any of you reading this able to withstand that moment of sin? You better focus up folks and stop this backbiting, finger pointing, arguing and debating over stupid matters that no longer have any purpose other than filler for a talk news format.

      Yes, I’m as critical of false preachers as the next guy, probably more so than most and most of you don’t even know me, but the fact is, Haggard fell, he made a mistake, he denied the Lord and now the cock has crowed, so what are we going to do about this now that the betrayel and 30 pieces has been passed? Are we going to throw the man out to the enemy as Paul told the Corinthian church? Or are we going to finally put aside our bloody pious self righteousness Ann Coulter name calling and humiliating our opponant, or are we going to root out the problem, restore the brother and see him brought back into the church just as the same young man Paul had removed who later found grace and mercy?

      I’ll tell ya folks, and you listen and you all listen well, we got bigger worries to think about and worry about than Haggard, and its our world. While we are arguing and doing a smackdown on our own, the enemy is encamping around us and he’s circling. We need to come together and build one another because whether we like it or not, this nation, this world is about to be turned upside down and we’re the ones who are going to have to deal with what is coming and I don’t know about any of you all, but I prefer to be fighting the enemy than what most are doing – political grandstanding for the sake of being right or getting larger hits on ones website. I can all of this on Fox News from the idiots in Washington, I didn’t sign up for this nonsense in the church.

      C. L. Gregory

  9. Hi Steve,

    Can you please clarify the following statement?

    The fact that so many on here defend this idea that he must serve because he is “called by the people” indicates how far you have fallen from the biblical standard. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 is exactly what happens when the people choose.

    And this one below is puzzling to me because Ted isn’t in “clergy”

    All of us have a calling from the Lord. The religious system has distorted this fact by perpetuating a two tiered system known as clergy and laity. This is the Nicolaitan error Jesus said he hated in Revelation 2 & 3. Because this ungodly system is so entrenched in our churches, it is assumed that if you are “called” then you must be in the clergy class and nothing can ever change that.

    Thanks,

    Phil

    • I thought that statement was pretty self explanatory. Where is Gods will in any of this?

      We know what God’s will is because he tells us plainly in His word. Ted does not meet that standard. He said himself that his call comes from the people. Since when did our American ‘democracy’ become the standard by which a man should serve the Lord.

      God has not called Ted to do this. The people have called him and the people will always call those who tell them pleasing things.

      That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Isaiah 30:9-10

      As it was in the days of Isaiah so it is today. If the people really wanted to hear from God they would not listen to Haggard because he fails the biblical standard. But the people do not care about the biblical standard and neither does Mr. Haggard.

      As for your next statement it is clear that Ted was a member of the clergy class and I for one have no doubt that he is headed there again. He himself said that he currently has a leadership position in the Body of Christ. That is surely where this is headed.

      I haven’t even mentioned the fact that Mr. Haggard seems to be rewriting history in his response to me but that is another matter. It is my view that he has not dealt with this problem in a biblical manner, therefore the problem is likely to resurface at some point.

    • Hi Steve,

      I thought that statement was pretty self explanatory. Where is Gods will in any of this?

      Isn’t it God’s will for Ted to repent and be restored to the Body? That’s what is taking place.

      We know what God’s will is because he tells us plainly in His word. Ted does not meet that standard. He said himself that his call comes from the people. Since when did our American ‘democracy’ become the standard by which a man should serve the Lord.

      Ted Haggard can’t share his testimony? He can’t have a Bible study with his friends in his home? He and his wife can’t share their experiences with other married Christian’s who are struggling due to sin and infidelity? That’s what he’s doing. How is that not God’s will?

      God has not called Ted to do this. The people have called him and the people will always call those who tell them pleasing things.

      How do you know “the people” you claim are “calling” Ted have not been led by God to do so?

      That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Isaiah 30:9-10

      Hey, what about this?
      2Corinthians 2:5-8
      But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree–in order not to say too much–to all of you. Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

      I must say I haven’t seen a whole lot of the above in the Ted Haggard situation, at least online.

      As it was in the days of Isaiah so it is today. If the people really wanted to hear from God they would not listen to Haggard because he fails the biblical standard. But the people do not care about the biblical standard and neither does Mr. Haggard.

      Don’t you think this is a bit of a stretch since all he is doing is giving his testimony and for a couple of weeks hosted a bible study in his own home?

      As for your next statement it is clear that Ted was a member of the clergy class and I for one have no doubt that he is headed there again. He himself said that he currently has a leadership position in the Body of Christ. That is surely where this is headed.

      Clergy class? There is a two tiered system and has been since AD40 or so. Elders were appointed (Acts14:23) they have stringent qualifications (1Timothy 3, Titus 1:5-9) and are under a stricter judgment (James 3:1). These are leadership roles but are meant to be service roles IOW these men are to be servants. No greater example of a servant can be seen in Jesus (John 13:1-17) washing His disciples feet. Sadly there are far too many who are in leadership who have set themselves up as Kings which disqualifies them as leaders because they aren’t servants.

      I haven’t even mentioned the fact that Mr. Haggard seems to be rewriting history in his response to me but that is another matter. It is my view that he has not dealt with this problem in a biblical manner, therefore the problem is likely to resurface at some point.

      What history has Ted Haggard re-written in his response to you?

      Looking forward to your response,

      Phil

  10. Whether Ted is called of God or not for me to say. In the past, I have shared very little in common with him, doctrinally. However, I do know that as a Christian, I am commanded to restore a fallen Christian. (Gal 6:1)”Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”
    Larry Stockstill and his “Government of 12,” can’t restore anyone. Nor can a regiment of psychological therapy or psychoactive drugs.Therefore, I don’t blame Ted for not finishing such a futile rehabilitation program.
    But the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Atoning Sacrifice are more than enough to overcome any deviant behavior. I pray for Ted and his gracious wife, that they will find the Will of God in their lives. It’s not up to me or Brother Lumbley to determine His perfect will. All we can do is examine the fruit.
    Is their a penitent heart? Humility and submission to the Will of God, which could include retirement from the ministry? Perhaps this rejection from the leading apostates of Charismania, will turn out for Ted’s good and lead him to “The old paths..”(Jer 6)

    • It is obviously aparrant that Mr. Haggard is not called of God (that is, in the capacity of preaching the truth of the Gospel to the faithful).

      Any simple reading of the New Testament will show that there is a simplicity of living to those who preach the Gospel.

      In fact, none of these “prime time” preachers fit the Biblical standard for living. They all have huge salaries (paid by tithing church members), book sales, profit from the lecture circuit etc. etc.

      In fact, I recall the example set forth by the Apostles in Acts 4:32-35. I see no resemblence of this being set forth by the group that supports Mr. Haggard or by any of the TV and radio personalities that call themselves Christians.

      It is a shame that so many millions of “professors” are duped by charlatans like Mr. Haggard.

      To me, it is still more of the “best life now” mentality that people want. Mr. Haggard’s return to the public eye is indicitive of the want of professors to lift up man in place of the Gospel of Truth… which is indeed, “anti-christian”.

      I sat in the church where the one of the pastors in the Haggard oversight committee(Mike Ware of Victory Church in Westminster, CO) told of the goings on when Mr. Haggard “fell from grace” and how the committee was going to handle the whole affair. The first thing they did was to keep this man on the payroll for an entire year (at least Ware indicated that this was a decision of the group).

      This type of pastor (Haggard, Ware and the rest of the new age bunch) is one of those who claims that “tithing was before the Law” and “chew on the meat and spit out the bone” and things of that nature. Believe me when I tell you, this man is no man of God. These wolves stick together (that is, until they screw up and have to distance themselves for the sake of their own ministry). Nevertheless, I only attended Victory Church for a short time and was even compelled to refuse communion before leaving.

      I am in complete agreement with brother Lumbley with regard to this man’s restoration. He has no place in any pulpit. As far as God’s Will for Mr. Haggard, I would cautiously observe the next few months of this man’s public behavior. Any Spirit-filled believer will see that this charade is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

    • Hi Duane,

      It is obviously aparrant that Mr. Haggard is not called of God (that is, in the capacity of preaching the truth of the Gospel to the faithful).

      How so?

      Any simple reading of the New Testament will show that there is a simplicity of living to those who preach the Gospel.

      I don’t live a “simple life” Duane. Does that mean I’m not qualified to preach the gospel?

      In fact, none of these “prime time” preachers fit the Biblical standard for living. They all have huge salaries (paid by tithing church members), book sales, profit from the lecture circuit etc. etc.

      John MacArthur, John Piper and Paul Washer are also prime time teachers with huge salaries, book deals etc……..does that mean they are disqualified to preach the gospel?

      In fact, I recall the example set forth by the Apostles in Acts 4:32-35. I see no resemblence of this being set forth by the group that supports Mr. Haggard or by any of the TV and radio personalities that call themselves Christians.

      Act 4:32-35
      And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

      Do you live “communally” Duane? If you don’t then why don’t you? Have you given everything you own away like you expect others to?

      It is a shame that so many millions of “professors” are duped by charlatans like Mr. Haggard.

      Take a good look at this site Duane. Do you think I’m duped?

      To me, it is still more of the “best life now” mentality that people want. Mr. Haggard’s return to the public eye is indicitive of the want of professors to lift up man in place of the Gospel of Truth… which is indeed, “anti-christian”.

      We call that “restoration” Duane. Please read 2Corinthians 2:5-10.

      I sat in the church where the one of the pastors in the Haggard oversight committee(Mike Ware of Victory Church in Westminster, CO) told of the goings on when Mr. Haggard “fell from grace” and how the committee was going to handle the whole affair. The first thing they did was to keep this man on the payroll for an entire year (at least Ware indicated that this was a decision of the group).

      Actually, the first thing they did was kick Ted and his family out of Colorado. Let’s not lose sight of that fact.

      This type of pastor (Haggard, Ware and the rest of the new age bunch) is one of those who claims that “tithing was before the Law” and “chew on the meat and spit out the bone” and things of that nature. Believe me when I tell you, this man is no man of God. These wolves stick together (that is, until they screw up and have to distance themselves for the sake of their own ministry). Nevertheless, I only attended Victory Church for a short time and was even compelled to refuse communion before leaving.

      I know lot’s of people who say “spit out the bones” including me. That’s a sign of humility unless you believe there are actually error free Christians……

      I am in complete agreement with brother Lumbley with regard to this man’s restoration. He has no place in any pulpit. As far as God’s Will for Mr. Haggard, I would cautiously observe the next few months of this man’s public behavior. Any Spirit-filled believer will see that this charade is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

      I’m a spirit filled believer and I doubt Mr. Lumbley would even think to question that but by all means feel free to question it. I don’t believe this is a charade at all. Please stick around Duane and interact with us!

      Phil

  11. Religious people have put homosexuality in a special sin class that is not supported by the Bible. Given the wealth and luxury that most so-called leaders live in this is very predictable. Ezekiel stated the conditions that bring this about in 16:49, “fulness of food, and abundance of idleness;”. Homosexuality doesn’t seem to be a major problem in Darfur.
    My experience with big time, big money, high profile church organizations, would suggest that homosexuality is found in a higher percentage than would be found in the middle class work place. Pastors desire to be “loved” by their followers has trapped alot of them in a variety of sexual sins.

  12. I think it is time you heard a different side of the story.
    Please don’t say that not all Godly men are like this. As a woman who has been forced into divorce from the treachery of two so called Godly men. Did you sit and have to listen to your children cry because there Dad was out with another woman? deep wounds that have traumatized them Did you collect my tears after all the sleepless nights from the treachery as a child of God I had to endure from all of the lying, drugs alcohol adultery. Did you have to take the beatings,rape sodomy!!!!feeling guilty because as a woman I felt is was my fault. The Post traumatic Stress syndrome that has crippled my body? These so called men of God are still out there. They have falsely apologized but not one has born any fruit of the spirit. Yet they claim they have repented and also are restored by so called men of God.
    Do you not get it any of you. I am one of millions of broken people because the Moral barometer that is the Church has no fear of God. Having fear of him is keeping his commandments. It is being obedient to his word.
    Ted you need to allow us to watch you because I don’t believe a word you say. Actions speak louder than words. Also I believe God is warning you. You and many have been Treacherous to your wives.
    Judgement starts in The House Of God.

  13. OK, I’m going to do this one more time and then I’m probably done.

    Phil, lets not be naive here. This isn’t simply Ted sharing his testimony. It is Ted trying to regain his old position in the spotlight. This is all about Ted and what he wants. It has nothing to do with what God wants.

    Ted said himself that he is responding to what the people want. Look at his own words. Gods will has nothing to do with this.

    Being restored to the body and being restored to a leadership position are two different things. I have no problem with him being restored as a brother but he has no business leading any bible study or even sharing his testimony at this time.

    We can know Gods will when it is plainly written in scripture. Ted Haggard is not qualified to lead anyone. His complete disregard for the scripture shows a lack of the fruits of repentance.

    Finally Ted Haggard has not dealt with his problem in a scriptural manner. Forget about leadership. He has submitted not to the gospel but to psychological counseling to deal with a spiritual problem. Psychology has no answer for sin. All they can do is give him techniques to prevent him from acting out what is still in his old sin nature. I saw him on the Joy Behar show and he talked about how his counseling helped him learn to line up his sex drive with his “values”. Where is the scriptural basis for that?

    This is ultimately destined to fail because it is based on mans ability not Gods. It is based on law and not grace. It the mistaken belief that man can solve his sin problem by the use of his own corrupt nature. That is the very essence of the false gospel that most of the evangelical church has embraced.

    • Hi Steve,

      Phil, lets not be naive here. This isn’t simply Ted sharing his testimony. It is Ted trying to regain his old position in the spotlight. This is all about Ted and what he wants. It has nothing to do with what God wants.

      If Ted wanted to return to his “old position”, and I’m assuming you mean Pastor of a church, he would already be doing so. I’ll bet you he’s been receiving offers for quite a while now yet has never accepted one. Perhaps the question needs to be asked is why he hasn’t taken one of the many offers?

      Ted said himself that he is responding to what the people want. Look at his own words. Gods will has nothing to do with this.

      Again, how do you know these “people” who “want” him aren’t being led by God? How do you know God’s will has nothing to do with their decisions to bring him and Mrs. Haggard to their churches to speak?

      Being restored to the body and being restored to a leadership position are two different things. I have no problem with him being restored as a brother but he has no business leading any bible study or even sharing his testimony at this time.

      I agree with you on the restoration issues. They are two different things. So when will it be OK for him to lead a bible study or share his testimony?

      We can know Gods will when it is plainly written in scripture. Ted Haggard is not qualified to lead anyone. His complete disregard for the scripture shows a lack of the fruits of repentance.

      How do you know he hasn’t repented Steve? What hasn’t he turned away from? When you say he isn’t qualified to lead “anyone” what do you mean by that?

      Finally Ted Haggard has not dealt with his problem in a scriptural manner. Forget about leadership. He has submitted not to the gospel but to psychological counseling to deal with a spiritual problem. Psychology has no answer for sin. All they can do is give him techniques to prevent him from acting out what is still in his old sin nature. I saw him on the Joy Behar show and he talked about how his counseling helped him learn to line up his sex drive with his “values”. Where is the scriptural basis for that?

      How do you know he doesn’t or hasn’t relied on God in order to deal with his past difficulties? Was his counselor a Christian counselor or a secular one? How do you know the “techniques” he was given weren’t biblical?

      This is ultimately destined to fail because it is based on mans ability not Gods. It is based on law and not grace. It the mistaken belief that man can solve his sin problem by the use of his own corrupt nature. That is the very essence of the false gospel that most of the evangelical church has embraced.

      I hope you are wrong in your assessment and I pray for him……..and until he proves otherwise I choose to believe he has repented and has been already restored as a brother in Christ.

      Phil

  14. I think the point is this. Ted Haggard DECIEVED the people for 3 years with his antics of taking drugs and being involved in homosexual sex. I think steve jones was being sarcastic when he said he made it all up. There are people who FALL and they go and straight away repent. and then there are people who have a LIFESTYLE of DECEPTION this was not just a FALL this was his lifestyle that he lived. While he was preaching AGAINST homosexuality he was living it WHILE he preached AGAINST drugs he was doing it. This is called being a hypocritacal. If a real minister of the gospel has a real sin problem. He will DIRECTLY WITHOUT HESSITATION seek COUNCIL. Ted was more worried about the material things he could loose so he covered it over.
    here is what the scripture says about about a pastor according to scriptural principles..1 Timothy 3
    1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

    2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

    5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil

    as you can see the bible says a pastor must be BLAMELESS SOBER OF GOOD BEHAVIOUR AND HAVE A GOOD REPORT…

    As you can planly see that Ted haggard does not have these qualifications.

    I do believe god can and does restore men like this BUT he is not qualified be a pastor anymore. ONCE YOU HAVE HURT THE TRUST OF THE PEOPLE IT TAKES A LONG TIME FOR IT TO BE RESTORED. I think the first thing he sould do is get before jesus and be a humble servant quietly in his local church or whereever he chooses to go and spend time with Jesus and go from there with patience before the lord. Ted has damaged people before no now is the time for healing and restoration and that may take years.. this is what i believe to be biblical council god bless you

    Laura

  15. If you allow Ted haggard to be restored in a leadership position it will perpetuate wolves lying and hurting the Sheep. It gives the message not that we are about restoration but that if you are good at faking and putting an act on > Christians are gullible enough to believe it. A weak Man with a lust problem will say . “Gee if Ted Haggard can do it so can I” . “I just have to say I have repented”. And so it perpetuates. The standards of the Church are so low right now now that they care more about economic incomes than setting Godly standards which God himself created. Gee if I wasn’t a Christian I would say that we are dealing with Sociopathic behavior. I am beginning to wonder if these so called men of God are truly converted. Yes we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God but that is why certain character flaws should not be in an a Spiritual position of leadership. It is about dying to self not being good at lying and playing the act. yes I know not all Godly men are like this but what has been done to me could soon be the norm because our men of God in leadership positions care more of themselves than being obediante to the Living God. Judgement starts in the house of God

  16. Hi Phil,

    These preachers with book deals and huge salaries whether it’s John MacArthur or someone else are in the position they are in because they preach messages that are popular and appeal to the flesh. (Once saved allways saved allways goes down well and sells even better).

    Even a cursory look through the New Testament to see how the apostles and teachers of the early church were generally received should be enough to tell us that there is a huge gap here between now and then.

    1Co 4:9-13 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. (10) We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! (11) To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. (12) And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; (13) being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

    Could someone show me where their huge salaries and book deals were?

    • Hi Jason,

      Welcome to Theology Today!

      These preachers with book deals and huge salaries whether it’s John MacArthur or someone else are in the position they are in because they preach messages that are popular and appeal to the flesh. (Once saved allways saved allways goes down well and sells even better).

      I’ve never heard anyone claim MacArthur preaches a “flesh based” message. Care to give links to some examples?

      Even a cursory look through the New Testament to see how the apostles and teachers of the early church were generally received should be enough to tell us that there is a huge gap here between now and then.

      1Co 4:9-13 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. (10) We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! (11) To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. (12) And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; (13) being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until n ow

      MacArthur has plenty of critics and there are some out there who do suffer like the apostles. Is suffering an indication of godliness or God’s approval?

      Could someone show me where their huge salaries and book deals were?

      Since they didn’t have book publishers back then your point is moot…….

      Phil

  17. The final authority.

    I don’t care what Steve says, or what Phil says or what any other person says, let’s go straight to the word on this and be done with it.

    Galatians 6:1 “Brethern, if a man be overtaken in a fault (moral failure) you which are spiritual RESTORE SUCH A ONE, in the SPIRIT OF MEEKNESS. Considering yourself lest you also be tempted.”

    What was Paul saying? He was making it clear, that if a brother falls, we are to RESTORE him BACK to his original place. Paul went on to say later in that same chapter verse 4 “But let every man PROVE his own work.” Once restoration is taken place, leave that person alone for a season so that the proof is genuine of restoration and if that person outwardly shows signs of meekness and Godly character which is lined up with the word, then we have done which is good and scriptual, let it be. If that person holds not up to restoration and fails once again, then we should dela with them once again and try to help that brother or sister, but if they fail or refuse, then Christ is void in their life and we need to simply mark them and avoid them.

    What most are doing is arguing over their denominational man made teachings, but what did Paul say about this? “But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.” Galations 5:15 If love is void then this tells us that the cross is void in our lives. Fighting and quarreling always follows after the law. We are not under the law so stop acting like it.

    C. L. Gregory

    • Mr. Gregory,

      You are confusing the issue. There is a difference between restoring one to fellowship as a brother in Christ and restoring one to a leadership position. I have consistently said that I am fully in agreement with Mr. Haggards restoration as a brother in Christ. What I oppose is his return to a teaching or leadership position. This is not an argument over the doctrines of men. The qualifications for leadership are plainly spelled out in scripture and Mr. Haggard fails that test. that does not mean that we should shun him as a brother but we should not accept his attempt to return to leadership.

      I agree with your statement that once a person has claimed repentance we should wait a season to see the fruit from that. Unfortunately Mr. Haggard has failed that test as well. He submitted to a restoration process led by several Godly men. He left that process prematurely. He never fully complied with their wishes. He refused to humble himself and maintain secular employment. He complained about working for a living and spent time asking his former supporters to send him money so that he and his wife could return to college full time. The first chance he got he returned to Colorado Springs and began to gather supporters for a home bible study. In short Mr. Haggard has done nothing to show the fruits of repentance.

      To answer Phil all I will say is that the people supporting him are not being led by God because they are ignoring the clear mandate of scripture. Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. That means we will put His word first in our lives.

      As for his counseling why don’t you ask him about the nature of his counseling program. And let me say right up front that I do not support the idea of “Christian psychology”. Psychology completely antithetical to Christianity. The gospel itself is sufficient

      All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2Tim 3:16-17

      O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge (science)– by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen. 1tim 6:20-21

  18. Phil,

    Clearly they did not have book publishers back then. My point is is that they didnt turn Christianity into a lucrative business.

    As a matter of fact that in a lot of cases they made sure that they werent any kind of burden to the people they preached to.

    1Th 2:9 For you remember, brethren, our labor and toil; for laboring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God.

    1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.

    … Is just a couple of examples. Can you honestly say that this is the heart behind most of the big ministries today?

    Lastly, if a person is preaching messages that is contrary to scripture such as once saved allways saved (or whatever is contrary to scripture)..etc…then you are preaching messages that appeal to the flesh.

    • Jason,
      What’s wrong with book deals? I’m a paid writer myself who freelances for different christian companies from time to time and I don’t have no issues with any preacher or Pastor having a book deal. Do you work? Do you have a job? If so, is that Biblical? My point is, unless you know how the market works, it’s not always as it appears to be. Let me tell you from a personal perspective from one who has recently signed for a book deal.

      When someone – anyone, signs a book deal there are certain demands and expectations from both the author as well as the publisher. The author’s main hope is that the book is received well by readers/consumers while the publisher is hoping that the book sells well, because the facts are, the publisher is taking a solid risk in promotion and marketing for someone, regardless of who it is.

      Now, the money, do authors make money off their books? Yes and no. Some more well famous preachers and or pastors will do well in the marketplace, but it’s all a risk venture because the shelf life of a book, regardless of who it is behind the pages are virtually competing with every other book that’s on the market. Not every book is a guarantee to be a success, many have fallen to the shelf of $1 days in the bin next to the check out counter while others do well. But everyone gets a chance in this marketplace. It’s all relative to what one desires in this business.

      Yes, most of these pastors/preachers receive and advance, but then again, what you need to take into account is, their advance, greeat or small is a LOAN toward the overall sales of the book. The publisher decides, to their best guess how the book will do on the market and they will crunch numbers and then, based on previous sales and sale figures, they will then do an advance toward royalties they anticipate the book will do. Bottomline, most authors who get a large advance see very little after the book is released.

      I can’t find in scripture where it is a sin to be a talented writer or even endeavour to try to be a successful writer. But then again, all of the greats in the Bible were writers so if you have a problem with a preacher writing a book, then you might want to take issue with Paul or Moses or Luke or even John, because they were writers too. But they didn’t have a literary agent at the time. 😉

      C. L. Gregory

  19. Mr. Gregory

    You are correct. There is nothing wrong with anyone selling books or marketing their talents(I do have a problem when people use the tax-exempt church as their platform). I am sure you would agree that a wonderful book or story by some unknown writer has little chance of success, however the drivel from some celebrity(Sarah Palin) will fly off the selves. Once a person reaches celebrity status, failure is just another marketing opportunity(Jim Bakker,Jose Canseco).
    There is a certain irony in celebrity pastors selling books however, their rabid followers and enablers shell out their tithes for their wisdom, while the rest of us can get for $29.95.

  20. Hi Guys,

    1) I think it’s very obvious throughout the New Testament that the Early Church did not turn Christianity into a money making business….this for the most part cannot be said of most ministries today

    2) As others have set out on here, the Bible gives very clear instruction/command on the standards an overseer of God’s people MUST come up to. This gets repeatedly ignored most of the time and then we wonder why the church is in such a mess and why situations like the Ted Haggard one keep happening.

    Phil, thankyou for the discussion.

    • Hi Jason,

      I completely agree with you regarding the requirements for overseer, but Ted Haggard isn’t an “overseer”.

      Thank you for the discussion!

      Phil

  21. Here is the contraditons or lies that Ted Haggard said in the above letter
    here are two links of Ted and grant hass talking.. listen to see how ted uses a cuss word ( not appropriate for a man of god) and how he talks about lot of texts he sent grant hass..

    the following portion of the letter ted haggard is a TOTAL CONTRADITION to this conversation he has with hass. Haggard is STILL LYING. This man is a liar and a deciever people of god stay well away.

    3. Neither Grant Hass nor I have ever been attracted to one another physically or ever claimed that there was any physical relationship between us at all. Let me assure you, I took four lie detector tests all demonstrating that I did not have a three year affair with Mike Jones, had not had sexual contact with anyone in the church other than my wife, and had never groomed anyone in the church for sexual contact but my wife. Your speculation here is just that, speculation. And it’s not helpful. Please, this issue has been so clouded by that type of speculation that people have to struggle to see the facts. You are wise enough to know that speculation in something like this is not helpful to anyone. I have acknowledged an “inappropriate relationship” with Grant, but it was not sexual, it was from my point of view a peer relationship instead of a more distant, professional relationship which would have been more appropriate. I am sorry for not being the pastor I should have been for Grant.

    • Laura,

      The claim you are making are not substantiated by these audio recordings. Throughout the messages Ted admits his sin, admits his failure as a pastor, admits his struggles, then he offers reparations to the young man, he is appealing to the young man to lay down the lawsuit. There is no news in this. And yes I already knew about the text messages. So I come away from this with no change in my posture whatsoever.

  22. Alan I must say anyone who listens to these tapes heres how ted is manipulating this poor young man and how he contantly talks about himself and to top it all off he uses a cuss word thats inappropriate for any christian to use. it seem to me you refuse to see the obvious truth about this man. Ted haggard has denied ever having sexual relations with Grant hass in the above letter when PLAINLY he has. why would he ask him to delete tons of texts from his phone is they were only a bit of innocent chat and then why is he soo grateful when he says i deleted.it they were just simply FRIENDLY texts. you are missing the point Ted in his above letter SAID that he DIDN;T HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH GRANT HASS..look at the above letter.. he pentantly lying. hes a deciever.. i only pray you will see the truth for yourself someday and stop defending a liar.. unless you too want to believe the lie. my heart goes out to all teds victims. the people in his church were very very wounded by this man.. it simply heartbreaking they trusted him and he lived a deceptive lifestyle. i pray with all my heart that ted TRULY repents someday. but the fact is he hasn;t he is more concerned about himself than anyone else and that is a form of narcissm. ted should leave the church alone and live quietly with him and his wife instead of dragging up the past constantly on tv. a loving thing to do would let it lie. BUT NO he keeps coming back like some leech that has to prove a point.. god bless you alan and i wish you well

    Laura 🙂

  23. Laura,

    I am not excusing any of what Ted did but I am saying that what you are accusing him of is not in evidence by the recordings other than the fact that Ted used a vulgar expression in a private conversation. He himself admitted that his sins had driven him from the ministry but little else in the audio substantiates your claim that he had sexual contact with Haas. I am aware of what Ted admits to doing and it was bad enough but it was not a sexual relationship with Haas. If that comes into evidence, and I admit that it could, I will entertain the facts that are presented. All you have above is; 1. A vulgarity, 2. An admission that there were texts which would show Ted in a bad light(nothing of their content was revealed) 3. Ted appealing to Grant to forgive and to lay aside a law suit, along with an offer to pay reparations to the man.

    But Laura, you are not my adversary and I do not have infallible knowledge of Ted Haggards private failures. They certainly could be more extensive that I am aware of. The evidence that I have seen points to two men who are either exaggerating their claims or flatly lying. OR as you say the other side COULD be that Ted has lied. However, it is not evidenced by those voice recordings.

    I wish you every blessing. I continue to stand with Ted and Gayle and in favor of their restoration.

    Peace to you
    alan hawkins

  24. hi alan.
    thankyou for your reply but i still stand by what i said. if there was NO sexual relations.. why would ted be soo anxious to get rid of the text messages and beg him to delete them ??? why?? it makes absolutely no sence. why would he beg him to drop the charges? the charges for what then?? for having friendly banter on text messages. would he be brought to court for having friendly banter..??? think alan i think not.. this young man suffered with confusion of his sexuality and ted took advantage. if you can;t see that then you are very very blind. I am seriously ammazed at how you stand with a sexual preditor even though he abused this boy.. its simply ammazing that you stand with him when he is obviously a liar.
    this is grant hass on a radio programme telling what ted was texting him.. this totally adds up. also if he never had a sexual relation with hass why did the church throw him out of the church and the town think about it alan.. this is my last post. its your choice to believe a liar if you choose but i care about people that they are not lied to and abused by this narsist. i pray that god will open your eyes to the truth.. the third video is is a private investigator that was investigating haggard he said that 10 other boys come foreward and said they were abused by haggard. please have a look.. IF haggard had never sexually abused anyone in the church then why does this investigator find out different information. its up to you if you want to agree with a sexual molestor you have to answer to god.. this is all im going to write about this. i have made my point loud and very very clear. ted has NOT repented as he clearly wants the limelight and shows no empathy for the victims of his crimes he keeps dragging it up and dragging it up also i don;t write this because i have to be right about what i say i right about this to expose and tell the truth in a heart of love to warn young boys and young men to stay clear of this preditor. if he had true love and repentance he would keep his head down feel empathy for the victims and live his life in peace.. but NOOO HE KEEP RUBBING PEOPLES NOSES IN IT.. ITS HORRENDOUS..
    god bless you and i pray with all my heart that jesus will show you the truth at some stage.. bye Laura

    • Hi Laura,

      I stand with Ted also just as I would stand with any other fallen brother in Christ who has repented which I believe Ted has done.

      What does “repentance” look like to you? What would you like Ted to do besides “put his head down”? Outside of his denial at the beginning Ted has been brutally honest about his failings when he didn’t have to.

      Did Peter repent after he denied Christ? Granted he never denied Christ again but he sinned after he was forgiven so much so that Paul had to “oppose him to his face”. Shouldn’t he have “gone away” like you want Ted to do after all hypocrisy is lying right?

      How do you know God isn’t using this situation to help people with the same issues Ted has or had? How do you know some pastor struggling with these very same issues has, rather then internalizing them and hoping it would go away,sought help because of Ted’s testimony?

      It seems like you want Alan to turn his back on his friend but Alan is only doing what Christ would do Laura. Christ forgave Peter knowing full well that Peter would sin again but what did Jesus say to Peter? “Feed my sheep”……

      While we have every right to be angry when does the time come when we turn this over to God and trust Him to take what Satan has meant for evil to make some good come from all of this? I believe He’s already doing so and I hope one day you set aside your anger and realize the same thing.

      Phil

  25. ps lastly a christian is being watched by god daily so he doesn;t use vulgar language in a private conversation or in public jesus watches us all the time. he has no fear of god in his eyes..

  26. quick response to phil there is such thing as righteous anger.. and im angry for the victims and that is holy and righteous before god. its up to you if you choose to follow a deciever and a sexual preditor who hasn;t repented cause as i said before he would live a quiet life.. there is no need for me to say anything else god bless you and i pray someday god will open your eyes…

  27. I am always amazed by how sexual sins can generate so much righteous anger and yet the Bible doesn’t rate it any worse than being covetous. I am still waiting for the first mega-church to fire their overseer for being greedy for money?????? It seems that most church goers and pastor worshippers quit read the qualifications of an overseer after husband of one wife.

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