Dave Norris and His Imaginary Watchmen!

dave norris wanted posterThis podcast is an awful tale of one Online Discernment Ministry and the deception on the part of one person, Mr. Dave Norris.

Imaginary friends, fake deaths and further deviant and destructive behavior all play a part in Norris’ manipulations.

You need to hear it to believe it. Right click the link below and select “save as” to download the program to a portable device or simply double click the link to listen from an on site audio player.


Here is the only link I will publicly provide….email me for the rest.

Rod France claiming to be a Nazarene Pastor with a divinity degree…..only he never existed!–%2C1242821521&fr=moz2&u=obadiah1317.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/&w=oral+roberts+university+diploma+mill+mills&d=SYoqEExISpuK&icp=1&.intl=us


21 thoughts on “Dave Norris and His Imaginary Watchmen!

  1. Although I often agree with some of the issues, I vehemently disagree with much of the invective laced attacks as well as the palpable self righteousness on many ODM sites. Since that internet genre seems so consumed with correcting almost everyone, it will be interesting to see how the ODM world deals with this if indeed it turns out to be true.

    Of course when Paul Proctor openly suggested God purposely eletrocuted a pastor in his own Baptistry, the ODM silence was deafening. His message was titled, “God Sends Shocking Message to Emerging Church”.


  2. Hi Rick,

    I warned all of the people involved prior to this including one of the big ODM’s that is involved with Norris……haven’t heard a peep but they still link to SPM on their sites…..

    This was and is truly shocking and I suspect that once the shock wears off those people will distance themselves from this mess….and publicly denounce this masquerade for what it is…..


    • Phil,

      You and Steve Lumbley have both handled this scripturally and correctly. Is there a difference between imaginary sufferings(Andrew Clarkson,Rod France) and imaginary blessings(Hinn,Davidson,Bakker,etc.)? I don’t think so.

  3. Hi,

    Compare what was offered yesterday from “Bob Williams”;


    with this one from 2 years ago written by Dave Norris;

    This was after 2 elders had already confronted him during the past 7 days……..


  4. Phil thanks for sending me all the links. I spent most of yesterday reading cached articles and the Spiritual Ministries web site. Funny how so many articles just disappear. I commend you and Steve for handling this in a biblical way. I believe what you are saying is true. I just read the Joel Osteen articles and they are practically identical.

  5. http://web.archive.org/web/20071012035818/obadiah1317.wordpress.com/category/jesse-duplantis/

    This is an article written by Rob France on August 25,2007 titled Listening to Jesse Duplantis. Now go to the Spiritual Pathways site and read the article by Nathan Cooke titled Listening to Jesse Duplantis, May 21,2009. Better go quick before it disappears. Same article. Hopefully I have typed in the URL correctly if not let me know . I have the page bookmarked on my computer.

  6. Hi Phil,

    May I commend you for the work on this topic. I’ll tell everyone here that I wasn’t that familiar with many of the issues with Spiritual Pathways and I approached them because I wanted to witness things first hand.

    Yes, I’ve talked with Dave Norris. I pushed hard to have the opportunity to meet and talk with Chuck Swanson, but I now know that isn’t going to happen. First he doesn’t want to fellowship with anyone from this site, then now I’m told he’s moving.

    I don’t know about you, but if someone wanted to meet me face to face to ask questions about what we do here, I would welcome the opportunity. Even if Dave Norris wanted to grace my doorstep, I would meet with him. I wouldn’t hide behind a smokescreen. There are no smoke and mirror antics here. The work done here is “real”.

    Since my experience, I’ve seen more backup to this podcast and I would hope that others will take the time to write and get the details. See if for themselves.

    Good work here Phil. I can assure readers here that you do your homework. Thanks for giving me some rope so I could check this out for myself. That just demonstrates your integrity. You don’t expect me to just “follow the leader”, but do my own research. By this, I know you aren’t in a “rush to justice”. It is just the opposite.

    Thanks for all you do. While this is quite disturbing, people shouldn’t be deceived.

    You know when you first started mentioning the ODM’s to me, I didn’t think anything like this would be revealed. Now that it has, it just validates that we all should take time to validate ministries we are associated with.

    Shoot, this should set a good example for the HP’s. I saw a lot of similarities. Not good.

  7. I know I’m an SP and proud of it but what is a ODM and a HP ?
    besides Old Doc Masters and hewlett packard ?
    (no I really dont know)
    Alan Havlick


    ODM= Online Discernment Ministry

    HP= Hyper Preterist

    What’s an SP?


  8. An SP in $cientology speak is a “suppresive Person” and I do seek to suppress that cult whenever I feel led.
    Alan Havlick

  9. I sometimes go to Spiritual Pathways “Ministry” wedsite until you and Steve Lumbley exsposing that this website is a fake. I will never go to this website again.

    • Hi Meg,

      I didn’t follow SPM too much after Phil left. When I knew there were some questions hitting the table about their ministry, I contacted Chuck Swanson because he “supposedly” lived an hour from me. I wanted a face to face meeting and I was interested in his “home Church”.

      When he told me that he wouldn’t fellowship with anyone who was a part of Theology Today, I was quite taken back. We don’t have a “membership” roster here. To paint everyone who visited this site and commented with such a broad brush sent up huge flags to me. At best, I was dealing with a “legalist”.

      Talked to Dave Norris by phone for an hour and told him how I felt about Chuck’s statement. I affirmed I was willing to make that trip at Chuck’s convenience. Never heard from Swanson, but Norris has written me a few more times. It appeared to me that Norris didn’t have a problem with Swanson’s stand…so another flag went up. Then less than 2 weeks later – Swanson is leaving Florida along with Terry Ferrell. Why didn’t Swanson say that just a few days earlier?

      I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion these two don’t exist. Sad to say….and I would love to be proved wrong. The offer to meet is still on the table.


    Yes, I understand that Dave Norris used fake names but that doesn’t bother me as much as the spirt that he walks in. Dave is controlling, manipulative, and lies! We can not put our faith in a man only in God-Amen. Coming out of a cult like Water of Life, has made me distrust so-called “Christians”. I just read his website and he feels he has done nothing wrong. Figures.

  11. Hello Phil:

    I was not aware of your website until this incident. I was the blunt of the very personal “Kathy Richardson” attacks, and I agree with Dorothy and others that these slanderous, deceptive attempts to discredit those of us who question things we hear and see around us has to stop. I use my real name as I have nothing to hide (Steve knows me personally). I am not after website hits, just truth. You are so right, after that “scandal” first broke out a few weeks ago, my site saw much more activity. It’s a sham, reminds me of famous people that act recklessly in public for the publicity and popularity…so childish! I have a friend who wrote for SPM and Dave continually urged her to “be honest” and use her real name, until she finally just started her own site. This was also part of my motivation as well as I always had several “men” attacking me anytime I wrote a comment or asked a question. I was then called “contentious” and arrogant for arguing with several men at once!

    I have more details about all this on my site, you just have to scroll down till you get to “Fellowship and being led by the Spirit”.

    keep up the good work-

    Psalm 31:18
    Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous



    • Hi,

      I’m sorry you went through that with Dave.

      I always found it disturbing that Dave and “Co” would argue with others yet labeled someone as “divisive” and “contentious” when anyone attempted to clarify their position or dared to disagree with “them”.

      I see Dave is now trying to discredit Steve Lumbley. Steve was ok when he was allowing Dave to cut and paste his work but now that Steve is critical of SPM his discernment isn’t very good.

      All of that happened to me and more…..

      Thanks for your bravery !


  12. I run the truediscernment.com website and at one time Dave Norris had a link to my website on his site.

    Almost a year ago I asked Dave Norris to remove all links to my website from his site after he appeared to be clearly double minded. He seemed to me more concerned about making a name for himself and cozying up to whomever, whatever their beliefs or lack there of if they had a great deal of public exposure. He just seemed more concerned with being popular and obssessive about how much traffic came to his website.

    And in regards to Rick Freuh’s statement about ODM’s being silent in regards to certain articles. Many of us do what we do out of love for God’s word, on our own time, with no additional resources so we all dont catch all that is being said on the internet or in the news.

    This latest incident has caused me to rethink whether to continue with my website as while this is the most serious incident to date with an ODM acting in a manner that is unnacceptable by even secular standards let alone Christian standards, it is by far not the first.

    I made it a policy some time ago to not get into petty arguments via comment threads on websites that either have a differant Theological viewpoint or ones that are critical of Christianity. What I found was that many ODM website owners would and still do comment on those threads and they get into sniping and biting arguments with other Christians and non-Christians. And while there is a valid point in having an ODM to expose the Wolves among us what IS destroying the repuations of ODM’s is the degree of precision of belief that many ODM owners are requiring of others, and if there is not perfect agreement then juvenile sniping ensues in comment threads or in written articles.

    No one need worry about the non-Christian world destroying Christianity. the church itself is doing a pretty good job of destroying itself! Its high time ODM’s get off the precision of fatih mantra of attacking one another, and concentrate on the real and wilfull wolves among us.

    what many fail to ralize is that the internet is the perfect tool for satan to destroy Christians, and they can be destroyed through their own ODM! I have seen obsessive independence among ODM owners. And some obsessive isolationism!

    NONE of us can survive in isolation. All of us must be a part of a local body, whether that local body is an actual Church or an informal body that meets in a home. ODM’s can only be a compliment to that participation in a local body. It can never be allowed to become the sole avenue for a Christian to interact within. And that includes online Bible Studies.

    There is no transparency in ODM’s or online Bible Study groups or if you will online “local bodies” I find anyone highly suspect who will not be part of a local body and come under the authority of that local body. To me that says they have a rebellious spirit and should be avoided. there is a balance that we all must keep to ensure we do not go off the deep end and separate ourselves from God even while we think we are acting on his behalf!

    ODM is in the midst of destroying itself!

    All these things I have mentioned are giving the appearance that all ODM’s are a joke and is seriously damaging the cause of Christ in a dying and dark world that desperately needs the True Gospel!

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