The Two Fold Atonement

Have any of you ever heard of a teaching called the “two-fold atonement”? Those who teach this claim that Jesus not only died for our sins but also for our sickness. They cite Isaiah 53:5 and claim that the word “healed” means physical healing and that those who believe will be healed physically. Is this so? Have a look at the following article; http://imrah.org/2008/03/and-he-healed-them-all.html

 

 

 

Before we examine verse 5, let’s take a look at the whole passage.

 

Isaiah 53:4-10 ESV

4   Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5   But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 6   All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation,  who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although  he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.10 Yet  it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; 

 

Hmmm. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has even a fragment of biblical knowledge would consider this passage to include physical healing, however it is being taught so we must examine this teaching to eliminate all doubts as to what the above passage means.

 

Are transgressions and iniquities diseases in the physical sense? Let’s break this down and see if there is such a thing as “double atonement”.

 

The Hebrew word for transgressions is “pesha”. It means a “revolt” and can mean national, moral or religious.

 

The Hebrew word for “iniquities” is “awon”. It means “perversity” or moral evil.  

 

The Hebrew word for “healed” in this instance is “rapa”. It means “to mend (by stitching”) or to cure. It can also mean to heal, physician or to make whole.

 

Hermeneutics teaches if a word has two or more meanings then we must look to the prevailing theme of the passage for the correct definition. The prevailing theme of this passage is our sin and God’s way of reconciling us to Him through the public humiliation, physical torture and death of His only begotten Son.

 

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter the author of the eisegetical article conveniently left out;

 

Isaiah 53: 10-12 KJV

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

Nowhere in the entire chapter does it even HINT that Jesus died and was resurrected for our physical healing. Let’s look at verse 5 in another translation and see what it says;

 

Isaiah 53:5 BBE

But it was for our sins he was wounded, and for our evil doings he was crushed: he took the punishment by which we have peace, and by his wounds we are made well.

 

The Bible in Basic English doesn’t even come close to saying that Christ died for our physical healing. Maybe the writer of the eisegetical article studies from the Benny Hinn Study Bible?

 

Did Jesus die on a cross for our physical healing as well as our spiritual healing? No….He didn’t. Let’s look at what Peter had to say in his second epistle.

 

1Peter 2:24-25 KJV

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

 

This was the very same Peter who witnessed many healings, including his own mother-in-law. He knew why Christ came to earth. He understood that Christ didn’t die on a cross for our physical diseases. Peter said and did foolish things…but would never teach that Jesus died for our physical healing.

 

Christ died for our sins….and disease is a direct result of sin. Christ healing while here on earth was really a “type” of what He would later accomplish on the cross. Taking away sickness was a “type” of Him taking away sin. It’s really that simple.

 

Jesus didn’t “heal them all” during His time on earth as the author erroneously teaches nor does He heal us all of our physical diseases today. What He did accomplish, for the elect, was heal us of our sinful depraved state and reconciled us once and for all to God the Father. Isn’t that enough?

 

Let’s examine a direct quote from the article;

 

“I have studied the ministry of Jesus and the ministry of His disciples, I have also analyzed their response to the sick and do you know what I found out? There was not one instance where either Jesus or His disciples asked God to heal the sick. I had written an article on this earlier, but I think I’ll explain it again. You can’t ask God for something He has already given. God has delegated each of us the authority to heal or in order to avoid controversy, let me put it this way…He has given you and me the authority to impart healing to the sick”.

 

Ah. So because Jesus and the Apostles (and select others) were given miraculous sign gifts that means we have them as well? I used to study Bjorn Borg, and I might have the same strokes, and believed I could win millions of dollars in prize money but Borg was on a completely different level with vastly different abilities. The same holds true for Jesus and His disciples. We may all believe…we just aren’t on the same level nor do we have the same abilities.

 

Here’s one last quote;

 

God has freely given us healing, and therefore it is wrong to ask Him to heal someone or ask Him why He won’t heal someone. Have you ever seen Jesus asking God to heal or pleading with God? Did Peter and John plead for healing in the above Scripture? No! They took authority and commanded. We are in command in this area of healing, friends. Stop all your pleading and go by Constitutional rights and exercise your authority over the works of the devil.

 

The above statement is WRONG on a multitude of levels. It’s wrong to pray for healing? Let’s see what James has to say;

James 5:13-16 (KJV)

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, says to pray and have the elders anoint the sick with oil; Sidharth inspired by his own agenda and only God knows what else says we shouldn’t and just “command” healing because we have authority over the works of the devil! I’ll take God’s Word over Sidharth and just keep on praying…..and believing.

 

This is the God mocking garbage that has crept into the Body of Christ. The entire “and He healed them all” article is nothing more then a heretic desperately pulling verses out of thin air in order to make his unbiblical agenda look “biblical”. It’s teachings like this, if not exposed, that will make it much easier for the antichrist to fool the masses.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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31 thoughts on “The Two Fold Atonement

  1. Asking is a small part of prayer, Phil. That tells me you haven’t spent much time at the feet of the Father. Prayer is three way: God speaking to us, Us speaking to Him and God speaking to our problems. You study Jesus’ response to sickness and diseases, and you will understand what I meant.

    You might to re-study your Scriptures. God has always included forgiveness of sins and healing in one package. James 5:13-15 shows us that. Psalm 103:2-3 shows us that again, Isa 53:5 shows the same and 1 peter 2:24-25 again emphasizes the point.

    Jesus heals! Hallelu Yah! =)

  2. Sidharth,

    That was fast? Less then 30 minutes after I posted the blog….you comment on it? Obviously, you didn’t read what I posted and offer the same proof texts that I took apart exegetically.

    I think its YOU who needs to study more. I’ve exegeted Scripture correctly and found your teaching to be lacking. You clearly don’t understand how to interpret Scripture and further discussion with you is really a waste of time.

  3. “by His Stripes we are healed” and “By His wounds we are made well.” When Jesus was beaten, he shed blood, i think you should look for the book called “the 7 places Jesus shed His Blood” i don’t remember the author. It talks about this and next you will ask if there are 7 atonements against debt and poverty etc. Anyway, basically everything we need is in the Blood and that is why we take communion. Paula White who you don’t like so much was led to take communion daily to heal her of a liver condition or something and now she is well. The blood of Jesus is perfect, without disease, fearless etc. that is why it is the answer to everything. If you plead and claim the blood from the stripes that Jesus bore, you should receive your healing. So yes, i believe in not only a 2 fold atonement but a 7 fold. Read the Book. All these things are revelations. Ask God whatever question you have and He will give you an answer. Ask and you shall receive also give the mighty preachers today a chance. you can learn a lot from them for what they know could have only be revealed by the Holy Spirit for man can’t conjure up such deep revelations

  4. Hi Phil-

    Yeah I heard this twenty-five years ago. It wasn’t true then and it is not true now. Funny how Paul did get this kind of treatment by the Lord. He simply received a “No. My grace is sufficient for you.”

    Couldn’t Jesus appeal to the Father at the tomb of Lazarus be considered a prayer for healing. And in that prayer Jesus says that the Father always heard him. So, isn’t there the implication that he had prayed before for the healing of some ?

    It is always curious that those who preach this stuff cannot perform what they teach. And many are either sick (and all are sinful) or have died of ailments common to fallen man. Go figure…

  5. Phil,

    Is there not a sense in which the atonement includes healing? In the eternal state, when we are given our incorruptible resurrection bodies, we will indeed have been healed of all our infirmities, physical and otherwise.

    You even touch on this — our sicknesses are a result of sin. When that ‘body of death’ (Rom 7:24) is done away with, and we are no longer burdened by sin, we will also no longer be burdened by sickness:

    “So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
    (1 Corinthians 15:42-44)

    I think the problem here is not primarily whether the atonement includes healing — one of the results of that atonement for the elect will surely be their eternal healing — but when that healing can be expected. What I don’t see is Scripture as a whole supporting the view that, because of the atonement, we can expect full physical health here and now. Does God heal? Yes. Can every saint expect healing in this life? No. Passages such as the following ought to be enough to refute that notion entirely:

    2 Corinthians 12:7-9: ‘And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”‘

    Galatians 4:13: “You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.”

    1 Timothy 5:23: “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.”

    Thoughts?

    Phil: Eternally….yes…absolutely. Unfortunately the article I critiqued claims we are to “command” healing.

  6. Betty,

    It seem that Paula’s healing did not extend to her marriage. What exactly was her liver problem? These people will tell you anything to get an offering. Having a liver condition does not make you sinfull, however adultery does. Which of these two problems do you think God is most concerned with?

    Phil,

    Excellent job! This false teaching is the backbone of the faith movement. Maybe Jeff can show us a couple of 125 year old believer in Tulsa?

  7. Hi Phil,

    An interesting topic you raised. Interesting, yet controversial. I viewed the article you linked to and I can’t but agree with you.

    You said,

    The Bible in Basic English doesn’t even come close to saying that Christ died for our physical healing. Maybe the writer of the eisegetical article studies from the Benny Hinn Study Bible?

    You are very correct. He could as well be using that of Kenneth Hagin.

    I quite agree with you that Jesus didn’t “heal them all” during His time on earth as it was erroneously stated in that article.

    This two-fold atonement teaching lies as a backbone for the erroneous “greater works than this” doctrine. They believe they can do more miracles than Jesus did. How they jest!!!

  8. You know what is funny, if this brother just took a step back and distinguished between what is an indicative and what is an imperative half of the error would be eradicated. However, that will not be the case.

    You know whats funny this healing only exists in the prime of ones life. The greatest miracle that these “two-folders” could perform would be to beat death right? What I mean is if total healing is guarnteed that would mean that the greatest sickness which is death would also be brought under submission correct? Hagin and others will prove to be hyprocrites the day they die.

    Once they understand that Christ’s atonement actually accomplished the greatest healing ever which is the propitiation of our sins and that this substitute actually accomplishes the very thing that was promised; eternal life! To get healed from cancer means nothing when I am still going to die. So my challange is this Sidharth and Betty go to the terminal ill and when they die bring them back to life, this would prove your case, guess what Paul and others accomplished this and you should be able to also correct?

    Once you do that come back and holler at us!!

    Phil: These folks run around yapping about “authority” and “commanding” yet can’t do it themselves. Pray for these lost souls that they repent and meet the true Christ and realize what He really did for the elect on the cross!

  9. Well said Lionel,

    I’ve brought that up before when arguing against the “healing” crowd. In the link I sent to a sermon on the topic, the Christian doctor said he hadn’t witnessed a faith healing in his 30 years of practice. He kept qualifing that YES – God can heal, but he had never seen it. He said when someone had a limb restored that had been lost, or an eye replaced where one didn’t exist, or a raising from the dead then he would be able to qualify healings.

    He also said the healings he had witnessed were from medical intervention and not instantaneous and not restricted to Christians but available to everyone. He also pointed out the issues of some faith healing groups that actually places them in a position of blasphemy and the groups I’ve had experience with are in that category.

    It was a great sermon, so if you get the chance to hear it, it’s well worth the time.

    Dorothy

  10. Phil,

    I have listened to this teaching and agree with your analysis, however those who teach from Isaiah 53:4 use the word “griefs” in verse 4 as proof of their claims of healings.
    This teaching is one of the cores of the Word of Faith movement and appeals to people who love their own life and want to live forever on earth and believe that “Godliness is gain”. These people who sell and profit from this heresy are of the lowest order and no different than pick pockets and carnival hucksters. The irony of this teaching is that those caught up in it, think that they must have victory now in the flesh because their not sure what comes after death. The faith that is taught in Heb. 11 is about hope of a better place, not next months car payment or a bad back.
    As to their supposed healings, have you noticed how they are always of an internal nature?
    Back to Isaiah 53, His stripes were for our transgressions and iniquities, not our griefs and sorrows. It says he borne our griefs and sorrows. Which would suggest that Jesus was beaten partly because of their transgression in this heresy. It to bad someone didn’t explain the two atonement principle to Stephen. He might have altered his address to the high priest and lived longer.

  11. Hey Everyone,

    Again Phil, I commend you for pointing out this, yet another error of the so many of the blab-it-and-grab-it false gospel.

    Lionel, you are absolutely correct. The logical outcome of the double-atonement would be that we can overcome physical death, which in these mortal bodies is simply not the case at present.

    “19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” Rom. 8:19-23.

    It is true, as someone else said, yes, complete physical healing has most certainly been included in the atonement but not until we obtain glorification with, in and by Christ. But, at present we are “waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body” which will take place when Jesus does this for us:

    “20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” Phil. 3:20-21.

    I would have to ask these 2-folders this. If healing has in fact been included in the death and resurrection of Christ the same as eternal salvation, then why do we have to continuously claim a healing? In other words, we don’t have to continually claim our eternal salvation in order to be eternally saved so why would one have to continuosly claim their healing? Follow me here?

    If healing was included in the atonement for this present age then we would have received eternal physical healing at the moment of our regeneration just as we received eternal life thereby.

    Before I forget, Lionel, you said this:

    “Hagin and others will prove to be hyprocrites the day they die.”

    Unfortunately you are correct, and just for the record “dad Hagin” as his followers referred to him as, died 3 years ago this coming September.

    Also, someone above mentioned healing and medical treatment. I have heard this recently being promoted on TBN by Jan Crouch as if the miracle of healing has something to do with what Jesus and the Apostles did. What they did had nothing whatsoever to do with the natural means of conventional medicine. To say such, is in truth, to denigrate the divine.

    If one gets well due to medical treatment, by all means thank God for it, but in truth it has nothing to do with the miraculous as described in Scripture, it has to do with getting well through medical treatment; which is a good thing, certainly, but again not a Biblical miracle.

    In fact this “medical/miraculous” concept is basically what Oral Roberts used to bilk his followers out of tens of millions of dollars to build his hospital, long since bankrupt and defunct.

    He claimed that God showed him that He (God) would use medicine and the miraculous to cure cancer. Truth is the hospital never had more than 247-8 or so beds filled out of a possible 777 if I remember right.

    This was the incident where Oral claimed that a 900 foot tall Jesus appeared to him and told him that if he didn’t get the hospital built that the “Lord was going to take him home”, a nice euphemism for God basically telling him that “God was going to kill him if he didn’t get the job done”.

    I’m certainly glad I don’t serve that god [sic], heh-heh, for I would have been physically dead a long time ago if I didn’t get things exactly right for the Lord and my life depended on it with threats like that.

    Unfortunately though, someone showed up at the last minute and gave Oral the remaining millions needed to get the job done and I suppose that that is apparently why we still have Oral living among us teaching his “seed-faith” garbage which has basically become the contemporary foundation of the greed of the health and wealth false gospel.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. These false teachers of greed who teach covetousness for faith are going to bear their own judgment for sure. But, if it weren’t for the greed of their followers these false teachers wouldn’t have a leg to stand on to begin with and would just fade out.

    The question is then. Who bears the greater responsibility for the false teaching of “covetousness for faith” teaching and the “health & wealth” false gospel in general; the teachers of it or the followers and defenders thereof?

    A Christian,
    Timothy J. Bortner

  12. Ah, you guys have all gone and dealt thoroughly with this subject before I got here. Not fair 😦

    Brother Timothy Bortner, your comments are spot on, and thanks for the brief re-run of certain aspects of the false word of faith history.

    Phil, hang in there and keep pointing people back to the rightly divided word of truth. We have a crown of glory to lay hold of at the Lord’s return!

  13. Phil: Hi everyone! This will be young Sidharth’s last posting on this site. Notice how he conveniently sidesteps all of the salient points. He’s been a TREMENDOUS object lesson…..a real life walking talking WoF’er.

    “Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases” [Psalm 103:2]

    Do you suppose, the above passage is speaking about spiritual disease too?

    But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed. [Isaiah 53:5]

    Spiritually healed….again. So you say trangsressions, iniquities are the same? You are wrong. The hebrew word for iniquity is “avon”. There is no english word that can adequately define this word. The closest would be “rebellion”, but again that doesn’t fails to bring out the full meaning of the word avon. Avon does not simply have to do with sin, but the consequences of sin. I suggest that you read the passages where this word “avon” is used. Specifically in Genesis 4 and Lamentations.

    Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

    Sin and sickness are always included in Gods salvation. You have just chosen not to see it.

    Your experience probably doesn’t testify to Scripture, but who should I agree with….your experience or Gods Word? Let God be true and every man a liar.

    I have given you the truth about forgiveness and healing. I have gone out of my way to make this clear. If you want to know the truth, you will, phil.

    Sidharth

    Phil: Thank you for going “out of your way” for us silly people young Sidharth. The unfortunate thing is your “truth” contradicts God’s Word. Why don’t you run along now and go “heal them all” by your “authority” that you claim Christ’s death gave you.

  14. Guys, I think when Matthew said in his gospel Chapter 8 vs. 17 that ,

    “This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES.””

    He wasn’t talking about spiritual healing. He was quoting Isa. 53 which is the contentious passage in this blog in direct relation to physical healing. Cause Jesus had just healed some sick folk.
    I know U will say its all allegorical. Then you are having a laugh.

    Like someone once said, it will take a very good teacher to help you misunderstand the Word.

    Phil, I am a recipient of divine healing in Jesus name, I just can’t be deceived. I have seen healings with my eyes. Not hearsay, that will shock you. So please in your “exegesis” please employ some balance.

    @ Lionel, Lazarus was resurrected and he still died, so did most of the people that Jesus or any other person healed as recorded in the Bible. So, negro get ur mind right.

    You guys just can’t sit there and discredit the ministries of other people. Am I saying that they are all perfect, the answer to that is an emphatic, No!

    Phil, even the Apostles like Peter didn’t understand Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles, so what are you on about?
    The Power of God to act in a man’s physical situation is real you see.
    And @ Yomi, you live in Nigeria so you know a lot about the operation evil activities better than people in the West, you also need to get your mind right. Cause people are delivered ewveryday from demonic oppression. So if release from demonic oppression is part of the atonement, so is healing. Actually salvation includes release from demonic oppression.

    @ Phil if you go to Africa, believe me, you may not survive a decent demonic attack with tat mindset.

    Anyways, I know Phil has a ready made answer for me, but let me teach you why God wants us healed. It is for us to fulfill our purpose on the Earth for as long as possible.

    Jesus said the harvest is plenty but the labourers are few, just imagine all the few labourers are few, just imagine all the few labourers dying because they are sick and they pray to be healed and God says, healing is not part of the atonement. Maybe not the best explanation but you get my drift.

    I know you will say God has the power to raise more labourers. That much I know. But your arguement will end up as incomplete.

    You all need to go back and prayerfully study the Word, and don’t just come here and peddle a powerless gospel. The same power that the Apostles used in healing the sick and raising a crippled man at the gate called Beautiful is still available today.

    If you say it’s not true, I will not argue with you, but I can not be deceived by you lot, CAUSE I’VE SEEN IT WORK.

    Once again people, go on your knees, ask for understanding, fill yourselves with this Word. That same power is available to you in some measure.

    Phil: Welcome to Theology Today! Now how pray tell do you know whether or not I could survive a “demon attack”? I’ve been to Africa….no demons attacked me…except the critical thinking skills demon…

    You can’t be deceived eh Kelb? That’s interesting…….

  15. kelb,

    You said:

    And @ Yomi, you live in Nigeria so you know a lot about the operation evil activities better than people in the West, you also need to get your mind right. Cause people are delivered ewveryday from demonic oppression. So if release from demonic oppression is part of the atonement, so is healing. Actually salvation includes release from demonic oppression

    I guess God forgot about Nigeria (and the rest of Africa) when inspiring people to write the Bible?

    I have nothing against divine healing or deliverance from demonic oppression. Howeever, I have a BIOG problem with people like you making wild claims that you are not able to substantiate from Scripture. Fortunately, your sentiments are NOT holy writ, and I do not have to heed them.

  16. Oh, and kelb, I’ve lived in Africa ALL MY LIFE and survived with this mindset. I wonder how… Silly me! I’ve been too foolish simply believing the rightly divided word of truth.

  17. I beg of you guys to teach people to do the Word and walk in the light. Most of what I see is criticism, some constructive.

    And not everyone knows about surviving satanic attack. You guys seem to know, instead of teaching people how to put on the whole armour of God, and showing people a way out of their problems, especially the ones that have demonic root. you guys sit in your high chairs condemning people who are doing and would I dare say putting more effort into this commission than you all are.

    Mr Yomi, I have seen your blog not one day have you told people what to learn, or how to live, all you is tell people where every other person is wrong. Shame really.

    Armchair “preachers of the gospel”.

    We all know that its with persecution that we inherit the Kingdom, but there are many benefits that come with the atonement that are not only spiritual. While laying hold of the prize, teach the whole counsel of God.

    What the Church needs is not more people to tell us where we are wrong but people to tell us how to live right.

    Phil: Kelb, Yomi DOES teach people how to live Godly lives. He does it on his blog as well as behind the pulpit. He also identifies himself and doesn’t hide behide an anonymous tag when he criticizes others. You are guilty of the very same thing as you condemn us for…the difference is we aren’t afraid to use our real names.

  18. @ Yomi is this where I found one of my wild claims

    Mark. 16 vs. 15 – 18.

    Jesus must be making a wild claim or you are sadly mistaken.

    One of you is either wrong or right. Or maybe John Mark or the translators put it there. I know how those people can be.

    Nuff said, I chose to believe Jesus over you Yomi.

    I know your response already.

  19. Hmmm, “Did Jesus Die for Our Physical Healing?”

    I have listened to a lot of preachers read/quote from Isaiah 53 and 1 Peter 2:24, and conclude that Jesus died for our physical healing. I’ve also heard so many say Jesus didn’t die for physical healing.

    But what tips the scales for me?

    Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
    Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

    If Isaiah and Peter weren’t talking about physical healing, then Matthew was wrong!

    Its as simple as that.

  20. The guy won’t approve this one, but Jyde, well said!

    I think I tried explaining that earlier to Phil and his group, but some people just wont get out of their closet. 😉

    Sid

    Phil: Hello Sid…thanks for stopping by…..and now that you’ve shared with us more of your pearls of wisdom…..back to the heretics section you go…..have a nice time!!!

  21. With just a sliver of Biblical knowledge one would use scripture to interpret scripture. While I don’t play scriptural tic-tac-toe without a good Greek or Hebrew dictonary Matthew 8 should clear this idea up for you. According to Jesus salvation and healing go together because they are derived from the same provision.

  22. As a Calvinist, I have to ask. If the benefits of the atonement are sufficient for all men, yet efficient only to the elect [as my folks the Puritans use to say], and yet you host miracle crusades where even the unsaved and unregenerate are supposedly healed, then surely physical healing can only be offered to the elect – just a teenage Calvinist thinking out loud…

  23. Nice to see you…so, when I get sick I take medicine, pray, confess scripture, stand on the promises of Christ Jesus and go to the doctor not always in that order. I’m 41 and I haven’t been to a doctor except for a tetanus shot last year when I stepped on a rusty nail. (I was in the hospital for a couple of days as a young boy for impacted bowels).
    I’ve never remembered myself to have “commanded” God ever for anything. I really don’t see the need for that as a believer. How would you do that anyway… what would really happen if you did?

    Phil: One of the main points in the posting was young Sidharth’s belief that we are to “command” healing…..he’s one of those blab it grab it that only blabs it and has nothing to show for it except empty promises…..

  24. here is just a thought for Brother Douglas.
    Jesus only healed unsaved and unregenerated people in his ministry. This has always kept me thinking.
    Pastor Mark
    keep us in your prayers… we are looking at a different ministry location closer to the bulk of the people that come to our church. We would need a buyer for our current building to see this happen. Thanks, Pastor Mark.

  25. The elect were sinners before the grace of God found them…for all we know they may well have been among the elect

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