The Sacrilegious Six

In May of 2007, immediately following the devastating secular expose of Paula and Randy White, I made the remark to some friends that only government intervention would slow these wolves down. Well, we’re about to find out if I’m right as SIX ministries are being called out by Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa. The Sacrilegious Six are none other then; Paula and Randy White, Benny Hinn, Joyce and Dave Meyer, Creflo and Taffi Dollar, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland and Bishop Eddie Long. This is serious business folks!  

If you’ve taken the time to read each of the letters sent out by Senator Grassley, you will see that no financial stones will be left unturned. Each letter is different but very specific. Senator Grassley is demanding EVERYTHING from these thieves, right down to clothing and cosmetic surgery expenses possibly paid for by these ministries. It is alleged that Joyce Meyer Ministries actually paid 23,000 dollars for a marble toilette for her ministry offices! 

 I’ve maintained all along that these pimps are only interested in their own personal empires and don’t give two hoots about anyone other then their immediate families and their sycophants. I wonder how many homeless people in Saint Louis could have been fed with the 23,000 bucks Meyer allegedly doled out for a marble throne to sit her pampered backside on.   

I’m sure there are many of you who don’t like the idea of government butting their noses into churches business. Well, I disagree with that reasoning. It was the pimps wanting tax exempt status-not the government. The government now wants to find out if the pimps are abusing their tax exempt status to grow vast empires by manipulating the tax laws. So would I and I would hope that everyone within the Body of Christ would want to know this as well.   

These ministries operate as private kingdoms with very little, if any, real accountability. They have hand picked boards and yes men who cater to every desire the pimps have, whether it’s biblical or not. Who else but government can hold these independent unaccountable kings and queens accountable? It certainly isn’t the pimp’s board of directors, elders or even their congregations. It has to be government. If the allegations are true, then the pimps are pimping the government as well and laughing all the way to the bank!  

One other disturbing aspect of this whole mess is the involvement of Ole Anthony and his Trinity Foundation. Currently, cult leader Anthony is gloating to the press that it was he who pushed for this investigation. Why did it have to be a manipulative heretic Lord? Maybe while Senator Grassley is investigating the Sacrilegious Six he could look into Anthony and his cult as well!    

Personally speaking, I will be interested to see just how much these wolves spend on actual ministry compared with what they spend on their own personal expenses. I’m also curious to see who actually paid for the cosmetic surgeries and the marble toilettes. Is it the ministry that pays or are the pimps using their own personal money? I’m fairly certain these questions will be answered in the next year or so.  

I feel badly for the sheeple who sit under the Sacrilegious Six. These folks are the ones who are really going to suffer. Why? This mess is going to cost their pimps millions and millions of dollars just to answer the questions posed by Senator Grassley. Can you imagine the guilt trips the pimps are going to lay on their sheeple? After all, fighting the “investigation demon” is gonna cost the Sacrilegious Six plenty of bucks so I expect to see big time sheering of the sheeple in the not too distant future!   

Finally, please keep in mind that this is an investigation and not a criminal trial-yet. No charges have been filed or any wrongdoing alleged-yet. As much as I despise the way the Sacrilegious Six desecrate and degrade the gospel, we must be fair because in America, these people are innocent until proven guilty.   

Stay tuned folks. Things are about to get very interesting! 

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76 thoughts on “The Sacrilegious Six

  1. These recent events have effected me very much and my faith has decreased as a result. I am a more recent Born-again Christian and my thoughts are that if we are to reverence God and they are not, they obviously don’t believe in the day of Judgement.
    It all just makes me question the faith we follow.
    If they are doing nothing wrong, what should it matter that they provide legimate information of where donators money is going.

    I mean they hide behind a system that completely shields their financial activities. However I hope that I am proved wrong in my suspicions as I would be completely devastated and would find it hard to trust any TV preacher.

    I know they are calling it a Stanic Attack, and going by the effect this is having on my faith and i’m sure many others it very well could be.

    Will the real TV preachers please stand up?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/06/cbsnews_investigates/main3456977.shtml

    http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/TransparencyGrade_0507.pdf

    Phil: Hi Lisa! Thanks for your comments!

    Your faith should always be in Christ. I would hope that you are in a good bible based church where you are being fed the Word. A general rule of thumb would be not to follow what a TV preacher says, especially on the big networks. When they get to that level, they have to raise an unbelievable amount of cash just to stay on TV. This is when they go all out and only preach to itching ears.

    I’ll be praying for you Lisa!!!!

  2. Almost forgot!

    I want to say Thank you for these blogs, they are completely invaluble to people needing some clarity on these issues. I know, not all agree with your approach to these matters but your information is pretty spot on and you seem itelligent enough to know what your talking about.

    Great work!

  3. Lisa,

    I deal with two cults within my extended family. It isn’t a pretty picture and makes for very uncomfortable family gatherings. The anger resides in both sides. It’s from those who have been active in local Churches for 40-50 years and still are not scripturally equiped to deal with it, and from the cultists who threaten to disappear from the gatherings if anyone insults their belief system. Of course, they consider scripture to be insulting if it doesn’t line up with what they profess. I’ve insulted them a few times.

    Don’t trust in man to tell you the truth. Trust in God and His Holy Word and you will find your faith increased to a level you haven’t even thought possible.

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. If my memory of history serves me correctly, we had the very same environment in the 1400’s, just prior to a major reformation. We can only pray that this government intervention will drive their followers to scripture for truth.

    I pay no heed to any of the televangelists. It’s sad to say, but there are professing Christians who take His Name in vain. That’s why we are to examine each other and name those who profess another gospel.

    Dorothy

  4. Thanks for the kind and wise words Phil and Dorothy!

    I’m from the Uk and not in a local church at the moment and relied significantly on several of these TV ministeries.
    I was so dis-heartened to learn about these events although I have had previous suspicions on some of their tactics before, but I put it down to me being too negative about it.
    Yesterday I was questioning if there really is a God, this is how much it has affected me, it’s like having people you put all your trust in betray you, they gave me hope and they have nearly shattered that hope for me.
    I feel that yesterday God put in my heart to read the bible diligently, that way I will know the truth.

    I will admit I was not of the strongest faith to begin with but I will take a step in faith today to continue my walk with him, but seek him first and pray that he will help me understand.
    They say everything happens for a reason, and the best thing I can take from this right now be they ‘Innocent’ or ‘Guilty’ is this…..not to rely on man but only on God.

    Peace and blessings to all, you have helped me a lot.
    :0)

    Phil: Hi Lisa,

    I would suggest that you begin your bible study with the Book of John. This will help you to really see that Jesus was God and a completely different Jesus then the money changers on TV portray Him as.

    We are all praying for you and are here if you need us Lisa. There are many solid Christians here on this forum so don’t be shy and ask us any questions you have. We don’t have all the answers but we will all work dilegently to help you!

  5. When Jimmy Swaggert fell one women in his flock said, “We’ve lost our leader”. Wrong! That is the primary reason why money grubbing churches falter. They’ve got their eyes on the wrong leaders. Jesus is their leader! Creflo Dollar once lamented that his first name wasn’t Billion. The Senate should investigate the whole of the Word of Faith Movement including those of the Elijah List.

    Phil: Well said my friend. I really believe this is just the beginning and if I were a 501 3 c “ministry” I’d be darn sure my books are in order because Uncle Sam is going to be watching them ALL like hawks!

  6. Lisa,

    Study is truly a labor of love and God is a great revealer to those who diligently search for Him. I was raised in the Church, but walked away in my late teens due to some very unpleasant events.

    Then 8 years ago, God took me to my knees and I saw myself from His eyes. I was so undone that I grieved for days and almost came to the point of suicide I was so horrified. Then He picked me up and I did a 180 degree turn. I started my search and the TV evangelists were part of my start, but in my study, I realized just how far they were from what I was reading in the Bible. So I turned off the TV and relied totally on Bible study. I tried a few local Churches but found them so seeped in false teachings that I decided to trust God to reveal Himself through his Word and He rewarded those studies richly and still does.

    I tell you this because I know first hand how scarey it is to feel alone in your search. I can testify that I was raised with a dispensational arminian background and now I’m in the fully reformed camp. I still study a lot and it’s a real joy. Don’t get discouraged. He is able to bring you through. I too will keep you in my prayers.

    Dorothy

    Phil: Hi Dorothy,

    Thanks for sharing your testimony! It’s nice to see encouraging things every once and a while!

    What was it that led you to the “reformed camp”?

  7. I had heard about this and I’m glad you put this on your site for more to be informed. These preachers love money and manipulate God’s Word and His people for more money. You never hear of them talking about dying to self, taking up our cross, or even praying “not my will, but Your’s oh Lord.” May the Lord’s will be done in this whole situation, it is obvious God is cleaning His house.

  8. Hi Phil,

    You asked what led me to the reformed camp and all I can say is Bible study. I began to study 60-80 hours a week and God provided the time to do it.

    It was during my second year of study that I began taking each doctrine out there, making lists of scriptures from both sides and testing them against scripture. Like Luther, I was looking for the answers on how to deal with my sinful nature in light of God’s Holiness, among other things. Eventually, I took what I had learned and started discussions with both sides to sharpen and test my skill and knowledge. I knew I had to be able to defend my position with strength scripturally if I was going to promote it.

    It was about 4 years ago that I was recruited to confront a major problem with the universalists and the recruiter described me as a strong supporter of the reformed faith. I had a good laugh. I had no clue. My focus had not been on denominations or camps, but on the word of God. So that’s my story.

    As a sidenote: This year has been a real test of faith. My immediate family has experienced many serious health issues which reduced my study time. The family members of the cults were actively involved selling their lies and there is no manner of evil they avoided in order to promote it. I can testify first hand of that. imho They are nothing more than spiritual abortionists who claim they can give you a “life”. What a lie.

    Also, I was in Tampa, dealing with these issues, when the Tampa Tribune landed on the doorstep of my hotel room with the White story. That’s how I found your site and the work here has renewed my strength. This is a necessary work. It isn’t pretty and it’s quite hard to endure, but it must be done.

    Thanks,
    Dorothy

  9. Dorothy, That’s a real powerful testimony and I sincerely thank you for it. You demonstrate a real hunger for Gods word and that is truly inspiring, you are a credit to the body of Christ.

    Over the last few days and due to these events I feel like my eyes have been opened, I have watched very little but some, of what the preachers have had to say and it convinces me even more of what is going on. I hate to say it but it almost seems cult like, the way the preachers have spoke to their church members ever since.
    I understand it is hell when people are dragging your name through the mud or should i say acusing falsely, but if they believe what they preach then this is an opportunity for them to excel in the body of Christ isn’t it?
    If they have not and are not doing anything wrong, then it only seems reasonable that they would welcome such investigations as it would win them more followers if they are proved to be true prophets.

    Today I listened to Bishop Mclaughlin talk about the events and that he has spent time with Bishop Eddie long over the last few days. The one thing that he said which bothered me was, when he said people think it’s wrong that preachers have the luxuries that they do, stop me if i’m wrong but no-one said they shoudn’t be blessed financially isn’t this just a childish and unclarified response?
    Anyway Eddie Long will be appearing on Larry King about this shortly.
    As you can see, I am still deeply affected by this whole ordeal, and will be very sorry if any of them are proven to be sound and above board, but I am grateful to have opened my eyes and question who I am following.
    It will be very interesting to see how the events unfold.

    Thanks again Phil, your site is completely necessary and I agree with Dorothy it isn’t pleasant but Yes it must be done. We cannot sit back and let the false prophets prevail any longer.

  10. I was just reading what Joseph said”You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good”. PTL!! and “Love your enemies (most of them professing they’re Christians) and pray for those who persecute you” I’m praying for Phil. The language he feels is Christian and that Jesus would want him to talk like he does, doesn’t sound very holy and righteous. You really get to know a person’s heart by what comes out of his mouth. My family have really changed and been blessed by these teachers; something that never occurred in my catholic upbringing (which really oppressed me) and my subsequent legalistic baptist teaching from a greek scholar and grad of dallas theo. seminary, but never taught me about living my faith out. So I know that my prayers will result in God changing your heart Phil eventually.

    Phil: Thanks for stopping by Olga.

    While you’re “praying” for me, please pray for Paul, Peter, Jude, John and Jesus. They used far stronger words then I do when calling out false teachers. Sounds like you didn’t learn much from the legalistic pastor.

  11. Even if those six mega ministries were to be convicted, there are always some pimps-in-training. One empire falls and another one rises. This would continue until Christ return. In the meantime, we should read the word of God and meditate on His word and let His Spirit be your guide in your daily walk with Him.

    Phil: Hi Angie! Thanks for stopping by. Yes, your statement is oh so true. There will always be pimps so and there will always be a great need to warn others about them.

  12. Hi Lisa,

    I don’t often give my testimony, but I really felt drawn to do it. I am a huge supporter of Bible study and encourage it everywhere I go. If more Christians were Biblically literate, then these false teachers would not have anyone here defending their actions.

    It’s quite refreshing to see that you have already discerned that.

    I think what bothers me the most is when I see people try to defend them without presenting a scriptural defense. It reflects poorly on their teachers.

    I can only pray that more here will open their Bibles and use scripture as their plumbline. I know they will be shocked to find out what God has to say on matters versus their favorite TV evangelist.

    Dorothy

  13. Dear Sir,

    I think the type of commode referred to in the letter to Joyce Meyer is actually a piece of furniture, not a toilet.

    commode (plural commodes)

    a low chest of drawers on short legs
    a stand for a washbowl and jug
    a chair containing a chamber pot
    a euphemism for toilet

    [edit] Related terms

  14. HAHAHAHAHA @ “Investigation Demon!” OMG you’re so right…everything viewed as “negative” is a demon. Doesn’t our God bring justice, too? Doesn’t Hebrews tell us he chastises because he considers us his sons (children).

    Funny how convicting scriptures eludes situations that hits close to home!
    Investigation Demon?? the devil can’t cast out another devil…and adding to that-a DEVIL WOULD NOT cast out another devil! hellooooo!

    Only those clueless in the Lord could swallow such crap!

  15. “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Matthew 7:1

    In modern language, “Turn about is fair play.”

    Standby Mr. G. Your day is coming; whatsoever you sew, that shall you also reap!

    Phil:Welcome to Theology Today Al.

    Why should “Mr. G” standby”. He’s only doing his job.

  16. First of all, from what I understand Mr. Grassley is a good and
    honorable man and a fellow Christian so I have nothing against him as a person. However,
    this investigation sets a very scary precedent of government intrusion into an area which they have no business being in. There are reasons the Constitution gives us Freedom of Religion in this country.
    For those of you who enjoy the ministries of the six pastors in question, don’t let this investigation bring any legitimacy to the suspicions that Mr. Grassley has. This author and historian says it better than I ever could:
    http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/people-in-grassley-houses-shouldnt-throw-stones/

    This is simply an attempt to destroy them because he is a Baptist
    who doesn’t like part of their doctrine, specifically the prosperity
    message they teach. Of the thousands of churches in America which he could have disagreed with, he specifically singled out one denomination. There is no evidence of any fraud or wrongdoing but he knows he has a very willing media to help him smear these ministries, twisting the facts and putting out all kinds of false information. The media eats it up because they themselves are 95% atheists and love to make anyone of faith look bad. To disagree with the Six is fine, but to try to ruin them
    by using an ungodly media and the government is just wrong, the American government doesn’t go around destroying churches like China does! This is a communist tactic. Its outrageous.

    By the way, 2 of the ministries were just exhaustively audited by the IRS and passed with flying colors of course, and a third, Kenneth Copeland Ministries actually contacted the IRS and ASKED to be audited. Tell me any world-wide organization or business who would do such a thing. At least most of these ministries are above reproach and that will be proven.
    I know most of them are independently audited each year so they are already in compliant and held accountable to federal law.
    Incidently, Mr. Grassley himself authored much of the law which the IRS uses in auditing churches.

    Unfortunately that isn’t enough for Mr. Grassley and his staff because his mission goes beyond the law, he wants to seriously damage his fellow Believers because he thinks he’s doing the right thing. But his method to use the Federal Government is unconstitutional.

    Listen, there are powerful Mormon senators, what if they decide they don’t like what the Baptists are teaching and go after their largest, most successful churches? (some of whom make these six look like paupers but when Mr. Grassley was asked about this he said thats just a coincidence)Then whats to stop the atheists in congress from coming after any denomination they choose? This is indeed unsettling ground to be on.
    This investigation has no merit, no evidence and is unconstitutional, its a personal attack.

    Whether you agree with these ministries or not, we should all, as
    followers of Christ, stand together against ridiculous unfounded and unconstitutional investigations by the Feds. Here are two websites which can be utilized to help preserve our Constitutional Freedom of Religion because once the Federal Government finds it can come after any church it likes for any reason, then life in America is changed forever.
    http://www.believersstandunited.com/
    http://www.religiousfreedominamerica.com/

    “But a Constitution of Government once changed from freedom,
    can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.”
    -John Adams

    Phil: Hi John…Welcome to Theology Today!

    Ah….blame it on the Baptists…..I see…because it has nothing whatsoever to do with these scoundrals living like kings and queens without paying taxes….like all the rest of us commoners do?

    Here’s a solution for those who don’t want the Government poking around in their affairs…..STOP ASKING THE GOVERNMENT FOR TAX EXEMPT STATUS

  17. Phil, obsession with your opinions and being God’s policeman brings great sarcasm & probably blindness. Did you read and consider what Doug Wead had to say?
    In some of your caustic writing above you would consider me a “sheeple” but I can take it. If you’d really like to know where the money goes it is published in a chart that you can find on KCM’s website (kcm.org). You’ll also have to wipe the drool of a ministry take-down from your chin when you find out that there’s been no “pimping”(your phraseology is rather a turnoff) for more bucks around this sheeples house.
    If you’re really interested in the other side of the coin. You can listen to or watch some podcasts of a week of broadcasts the Kenneth and Doug did (aired last week) and you’ll get the non-media version of the Grassley investigation. You’ll find out the KCM is willing to answer every question through the proper channel, the IRS, the governmental entity charged with oversight. The information can be gained but Grassely wanted it a certain way.
    Just the same way that I cannot go to your office and poke through you home or office simply because I suspect you of impropriety. The govt. cannot go riffling through a churches files because of a suspicions of impropriety. We have a constitutional right to privacy. Grassley can get all this info the right way and sometimes it comes down to having to force them to get it the right way and not just rolling over. By the way, it’s true that KCM has gone to the IRS and asked for an audit and if something were to be found that they need to change they are willing to change it.
    If I knocked on your door and asked for specific records would you give them to me because you were innocent and trust me to keep everything I found private? Most of us would not. Most of us with a bigger picture view would say this isn’t just about me but there’s a principal here and you don’t get to just come in here like that. There are proper channels to go through. It’s not a matter of secrecy it’s a matter of privacy even when someone doesn’t like your doctrine and wants to see you go down.
    It’s not hard to tell you’re not really familiar with the Copeland’s and the ministries of KCM because just about the opposite is true of the things I’ve read on this blog about their motives. I’d recommend coming to some meetings or the church and you’ll get a better understanding…hopefully, you seem pretty set in your point of view though. But, what does a “sheeple” know. I don’t follow Kenneth Copeland, I follow Jesus and I’m in ministry with KCM. It’s about people and at times us people and us “sheeple” have to deal with money and we don’t shy away from our biblical perspective on finances. Which I’m not going to take the space here to document.
    By the way, I helped pay for the jet the ministry now owns. It was a lot of years in the making but it’s finally helping do the work of the ministry(and non-ministry trips are reimbursed at the proper rate).
    …and about that donkey. I guess I’m living like an unaccountable queen. I own a car and a bike and a cell phone and I own several pairs of skis and I live in a nice place, especially compared to the Masai that I visited in Africa with whom we exhorted each other in the Lord. I even used a airplane to get there. I guess it would have been better to go by boat since Jesus did use one of those. Sarcastic humor I know but I think it makes the point although I’m sure you will not agree.

    Phil: The only mention of the Copelands in my article was that they received a letter….did I strike a nerve Lisa?

    You’re in “ministry” with KCM? The following article relates to another who helped purchase their jet…https://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/mrs-bonnie-parker/

    Any thoughts?

  18. Coyness now? A nerve because I wrote a reply? It would be more helpful if you would deal with the greater issues at hend than your disagreement with a doctrine.
    Bonnie Parker’s story is indeed a sad one. Is my testimony of receiving my healing less valid that Bonnie’s story? As sad as her story is what I just can’t buy is a victim mentality. It’s someone else’s fault if I die? It’s someone else’s fault if I give money when I shouldn’t? Where’s the personal responsibility? We are all responsible to study to show ourselves approved… Would you consider including in your anecdotal examples stories of those who have been helped or healed or even financially blessed? Much like a scientist looking at evidence would you be open to considering evidence for a doctrine other than your own?
    Regarding “ministry”. Yes, as a partner with any ministry that I support I am partnering in that ministry. When I support a Christian primary school reaching out to Muslim kids in Mombasa or helping drill wells in India or home fellowships in Turkey or yes, even helping KCM minister to prisoners through Mike Barber ministries yes I am in ‘ministry’ with KCM or all the others. The flip side is true as well. When I go to visit orphans in Romania those who helped me go are going with me. They don’t have to physically go with me but the sender is no less important than the goer.
    I have a research project for you. Get to know someone personally who has been blessed by their involvement with any of the ‘Sacrilegious Six’. I mean really get to know them. You can always find someone upset or feels hurt by just about any church or pastor but find some who are mature in the Lord and who’ve been blessed and ministered to and spend some time with them.
    Part B of your research project. With a willingness to at least hear what they have to say spend some time listening to whole messages on topics unrelated to those you consider offensive. Or better yet go to a meeting. The convention meetings are coming up and may I suggest especially going to the partners meeting. If you really want to know where the money goes you’ll get a good picture of where it’s spent. You still may not like it but I think you might catch a glimpse that we’re not about being greedy money mongers but we are blessed to be a blessing. It’s about Jesus, the great commission and as Jesus himself said doing the work that He did 🙂

  19. Hi Lisa,

    I would never attend a “believers convention” conducted by a heretic like Kenneth Copeland…you know, the whole “unequally yoked” thingy in the bible….

    I was in the audience the day he said that God was “the biggest failure in the bible”….I was also there the day he said Jesus suffered in hell for our sins…complete heresy Lisa…but let’s just overlook all that eh?

    Thanks for the research project suggestion…..but I’d rather study my bible….may I suggest you do the same?

    Have a nice day Lisa:)

  20. 2 Chronicles 6:23
    Judge between your servants, repaying the guilty by bringing down on his own head what he has done. Declare the innocent not guilty and so establish his innocence.

  21. Yep, keep on studying. That is always first priority but in that study don’t neglect to cultivate a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. I still think the research projects would be good as at the very least you would get to know some great sheeple. I would think that research can only help your endeavor tremendously. But then again there is many a scientist researching hard and they still deny things they don’t want to accept or get fixed on proving one one thing and lose sight of the big picture(e.g. biologists and evolution).
    Ok, maybe a community service project instead. I think most helpful would be 1 minute of prayer on behalf of each or all of these ministries for every minute of blogging against these ministries. Now prayer like, “God take them out” don’t count. Something is bound to change whether it’s them or you.
    Concerning God being the biggest failure in the Bible…you’ve got to be honest here. You know you’ve lifted a sound bite for your purposes. Second, I have no idea where you coming from heresy wise on Jesus suffering in hell for our sins?

    Phil: Lisa, this is going nowhere….you make assumptions about my knowledge of KCM and what he teaches…I WAS THERE and heard this with my own two ears Lisa…..Copeland teaches a “born again Jesus”….he didn’t come up with this by himself….he got this from Kenyon…who taught it to Hagin….

    Finally, in one of your earlier posts you used the word denomination…WoF isn’t a denomination Lisa….its a movement….sorta like a bowel movement…..only a bowel movement directly helps us….the teachings of the WoF bowel movement only helps the teacher….

  22. Hi Lisa,

    I’m with Phil here. The WOF movement is heretical and we are told to shun and avoid those who teach things against sound doctrine and name them by name so the Church is not deceived about what they profess.

    What you propose is not logical. I could have visited Ghandi’s movement and seen the wonderful reforms he made in his country and been impressed with his humility, but Ghandi denied Christ.

    The same for the Mormons or the JWs. They all do wonderful works, have strong family units, but their teachings are heretical. The WOF movement fits right in with Ghandi, the Mormons and the JWs.

    Dorothy

  23. Phil, I don’t think I used the word denomination anywhere but I did use the word doctrine. Probably if you didn’t get so hung up on trying to catch a heretic you might catch where it’s coming from. Rom. 8:29 says “whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Col. 1:18 is quite clear as well. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.” The terminology of being re-born or born again is the way God chose to phrase things.
    I gather that you also don’t think Jesus went to hell. When he took upon Himself our sin on the cross where did He go and what did he do for those 3 days(and I’m not talking about His body)? To where did He descend as spoken of in Eph.4:9? From where did he lead captivity (a great multitude) in Eph. 4:8? Where did he get the keys of hell and of death of Rev. 1:18? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree whether Jesus went to literal hell and go these things or whether is was all done on the cross itself. Am I therefore a heretic because I do believe He went to hell in His redemption of us? Is someone a heretic because they believe in sprinkling vs immersion or vise versa?

    Dorothy, one of problems with your analogy is that neither the Mormons nor Ghandi believe in the inerrant Word of God and many other aspects of an inerrant Word. You can shun me if you’d like but the purpose of the research project was to see the Word in action in people lives that you consider heretics because of their doctrine not to just observe good works and strong family ties. Every jot and tittle is there by design.
    In your policing the Body of Christ (to which you probably don’t think I belong) be careful to not begin to sit in the seat of the scornful (Ps.1:1). You may be surprised to find out that there are many of us “who delight in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night”(2:2) and we don’t believe exactly like you do.
    I am reminded of Eph.4:13 where we find out that when we mature we will come to the unity of the faith. It’s striking that it won’t be the unity of the doctrine. Unfortunately, one of our biggest downfalls has been our determination to correct one another. But then again, you probably wouldn’t include me in the Body.

    Phil: I apologize for attributing the word “denomination” to you…it was the guy above you. Here’s a link with some quotes for you to ponder and contribute to if you’d like;

    https://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/am-i-the-only-one-that-thinks-kenneth-copeland-is-a-heretic/

  24. Lisa,

    Since you say you know the laws of God, then you understand the work being done here. With that said, I’m quite sure then that you would not want anyone here to avoid doing what is right in the eyes of God.

    We aren’t talking minor doctrinal disputes here.

    Dorothy

  25. Phil, Oh brother…I’m not defending Kenneth Copeland (although I don’t see what would be wrong with that…I’m sure there are many that would defend you). I provided scripture references to your qualms concerning a “born again” Jesus.
    What strikes me about your writing/blogging and I think what makes you less effective in your mission is the attitude and lack of respect that comes across. For example, when addressing WOF as a movement (of which I agree) you then start taking bowel movement pot shots. Why not treat people with respect? I realize that many people argue on that level but it’s usually not very productive or helpful. I continue to get the vibe that you are mainly interested in taking down ministries under the guise of helping people….but that’s just me reading your lines…

  26. Dorothy, I guess I’m curious to know in your words your mandate from God and I’m also curious to know how you define heresy.
    I don’t know for sure I suspect that if we took the time we might find that we agree on more than we disagree. For example, Rom.10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” For me that is an example of a non-negotiable. There aren’t multiple ways to spend eternity in heaven…there is only one Way and his name is Jesus.
    On the other hand I’m guessing that you find the “prosperity gospel” to which I ascribe objectionable. Do you consider me unsaved/denied Christ because I believe that the God that lives in heaven like He does and that designed the Garden of Eden hasn’t changed? What is the egregiousness Must this be something we part ways over?

  27. oops hit the wrong button…to finish that last line…what is the egregiousness of this belief that we must part ways.

  28. Lisa,

    I’d have to be pretty silly to think a blog could take down an empire the size of the Copelands, don’t you think?

    My writing/blogging style is biblical….the Bible is full of harsh words and sarcasm towards false teachers Lisa…..society has become to “seeker friendly” which is part of the reason what’s commonly referred to as the Body of Christ is in such bad shape these days.

  29. Hello Lisa,

    (quote)I guess I’m curious to know in your words your mandate from God and I’m also curious to know how you define heresy.

    (me) My suggestion here is that you read the book of Jude for your mandate. On the matter of heresy – those practices or beliefs that do not hold to the core beliefs of the Church – they are often known as the essentials of the faith.

    (quote) I don’t know for sure I suspect that if we took the time we might find that we agree on more than we disagree.

    (me) It doesn’t matter if we agree 99%, if you held Copelands view on atonement or that God’s the biggest failure in the Bible, then I would say we are on opposite sides of the fence.

    (quote) There aren’t multiple ways to spend eternity in heaven…there is only one Way and his name is Jesus.

    (me) I totally agree that Jesus is the only way and I also hold that we are to abide in the doctrine of Christ.

    (quote) On the other hand I’m guessing that you find the “prosperity gospel” to which I ascribe objectionable.

    (me) I believe the prosperity gospel to be a soul destroying gospel. I’ve dealt with way too many who have come out of that movement and the damage can take years to abate.

    (quote) Do you consider me unsaved/denied Christ because I believe that the God that lives in heaven like He does and that designed the Garden of Eden hasn’t changed? What is the egregiousness Must this be something we part ways over?

    (me) This is what I do know. If you are truly led by the Spirit of God, He will not allow you to abide in a position that is contrary to God’s Word. I can also say that the health weath and prosperity doctrine is so lacking in the knowledge of God and so self centered that while you may claim to know His Holy name, you haven’t even begun to understand the depth, height, or width of what the scriptures reveal. Of that, I’m 100% certain.

  30. Hi Lisa,

    I look forward to your response….I’ll go toe to toe in scripture every day of the week, but I will not use life experience that does not line up with God’s Word, denies His attributes & characteristics, and remotely consider them as having any foundation on truth.

    When I see experiences called divine revelation and they violate scripture, then I am 100% positive it’s not a God experience.

    Over my years, I must say that the strongest testimony of faith I have ever witnessed are those who are very ill or very poor and still rejoice and praise God. They know their reward is in heaven and not in earthly possessions. You can take everything away from them and they never waiver. The health weath and prosperity crew will never ever understand faith that strong. It isn’t in the equation for them. Thus the spiritual confusion I witness when their followers are faced with these earthly things. I grieve over the false teachings that leave them unequiped to worship God no matter what the season. I can only pray that IF you are promoting material prosperity that you repent today.

  31. Blindness to reality is such a sad thing.. and Copeland is very good(maybe/maybe not) at hiding the truth… although his “distractions” from this investigation are very weak…Doug Wead is a businessman purely and simply… and now on Copelands payroll so of cause he is going to tell you exactly what he wants you to hear… Simple honest truth is all that is required here to show that there is nothing to hide… and if that was the case complete transparency would be all Copeland needed to show his innocence…

  32. I totally disagree with this posting. I am a strong, mature Christian and I DO read the Word and all these ministers are awesome… I watch them all and am extremely blessed. I am disabled and unable to attend church and the Lord is using them through a trememdous Christian Televison Network to minister to me and reach millions of souls for Christ. Maybe you should attend a conference or a service and then maybe you can see and KNOW that the Lord uses these people and they are true and real… I hope I don’t offend … that is not my intent… thought if I weren’t a mature Christian this would have offended me…

    God bless you and I pray that the Holy Spirit Himself teach you ALL truth… Halleluia!!

  33. Gail,

    Would you do me a favor and take a few minutes to watch a piece that Caren has posted on this site. It’s Justin Peter’s site and right on the front page is a demo of his seminar “A Call for Discernment”.

    Would you watch it and then come back here and tell me whether you agree with what these teachers profess.

    http://justinpeters.org/

    Thanks

  34. Gail your exactly the kind of person Copeland and his band of frauds prey upon…. good luck with your life.. you will need it after all is revealed about how you have been deceived

  35. Hi Joh,

    I would like to be optimistic and say Gail will view the video and see what is really promoted by the WOF preachers. With that said, I’m afraid she may be like others who visit this site and want to promote these people without really paying close attention to what they claim.

    It’s easy to come here and criticize, act like we haven’t done our homework, say we haven’t made our case, or we haven’t enough proof, yada yada yada….how many times do we hear that one?

    This isn’t about a slight doctrinal issue. The WOF movement do preach a different Jesus…and that’s deadly. You are most certainly correct that they prey on people like Gail and as she pointed out, because of her disablility she uses them to minister to her, so to convince Gail these people are deadly is a difficult task but one that must be done.

  36. I think what really annoys me about these people( The Copelands/Hinn/Myers/Dollar/etc is the total lack of caring about the poor souls they inflict their poisonous lies upon..sadly many of their victims fall completely into despair once they realize the level of deception they have encountered from these wolves and loose faith completely…its a pity that this investigation is politically biased and that it most likely wont result in much punishment… when in reality they should all be prosecuted to the highest extent and sent to prison for defrauding unsuspecting innocent people…
    But America is in the middle of an election and the Parties involved rely on the votes of the extreme right religious sector which is exactly where these Wolves fit into the picture..
    Who knows one day soon we may get to see these people punished in the way they deserve to be but i wont be holding my breath waiting

  37. LOOK AT THE FAITH YOU HAVE HARMED IN PEOPLE. AT LEAST ONE PERSON WAS ALMOST DRIVEN TO SUICIDE BY YOUR ACCUSATIONS OF TV PREACHERS. HOW BIAS CAN A PERSON BE, YOU CLAIM TO LOVE JESUS BUT YOU DON’T CARE HOW MANY SHEEP YOU TRAMPLE JUST TO BASH A BROTHER WHO’S SCRIPTURAL POSISION YOU DON’T AGREE WITH. 1.THOU SHALT NOT COVET. YOU ARE JEALOUSE BECAUSE GOD IS PROSPERONG THEM. YOU ARE JUST LIKE THE PHARISEES OF CHRIST DAY. HE PREACHED THE GOSPLE AND THEY KILLED HIM. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOUR SELF. SEEK GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND HE THROUGH HIS WORD AND SPIRIT WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH TU YOU. BUT YOU HAVE SHOWN YOUR SEELF TO BE PREDUDIST AGAINST T.V. PREACHERS. MOST PEOPLE WON’T COME TO YOUR CHURCHES BECAUSE THE FORM OF GODLINESS HAS NO POWER. BUT ALOT OF PEOPLE COME TO CHRIST BECAUSE OF T.V.PREACHERS. REPENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

  38. Obviously the writer of this blog has no idea about the 6 ministries that are under investigation. I guess you would know that 2 of the supposed Sacrilegious 6 gave their whole ministries over to the IRS to investigate a whole year before Senator Grassley decided to attack them. The IRS found absolutely nothing illegal going on in those ministries. One has also given all their info to the IRS after Grassley has started his persecution on their ministry.

    Grassley is doing this and asking for information that he is not privy to based on the fact that his denomination does not agree with the doctrines of the 6 posted ministries. It is funny considering that there are ministries out there that have more assets than all 6 of these ministries. Do we see Grassley going after them? That would be a big fat no. Why? That would be because those ministries agree with his doctrine.

    It isn’t enough these ministries do more for the poor around the world trying to lift them up out of the mud Satan wants to keep them in, we get to see blogs about it that don’t even look at the truth of the situation in the fullness of facts. I suggest you take a long hard look at what 20/20 tried to do to Dr. Fred Price. The outright lied about him and took footage of him and edited to say what they wanted him to say instead of portraying what he actually said.

    This sad Michael Moore trick is not a shot at the ministers in reality, it is a shot a Jesus Christ our Savior who redeemed us from the curse of doubt, fear, terror, disease, sickness, poverty, generational curses and death. This is the curse of the law and it is found in Deut. 28 as well as the other curses found in the Law of Moses.

    It is sad to see that people would rather believe the devised misinformation given by the biased media instead of the actual facts just because they don’t agree on doctrine. Instead of writing blogs that do not edify the body of Christ maybe you should consider doing some studying on the topics that you disagree with when it comes to the message of the 6 ministers. What will you say when absolutely nothing illegal is found? What excuse will you make up that they are hurting people instead of helping them? This whole thing sets a terrifying president that you seem to be overlooking.

    Maybe, just maybe, you should remember that Jesus gave us two commandments 1. Love God with all your heart, mind, and physical life and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Where in any of this blog is there love?

  39. Faithfull,

    Do you have proof that someone attempted to commit suicide over something written here?

    I’m not jealous of them or anyone else….actually I probably live BETTER then most of the pimps on display within these pages….the difference between me and them is I don’t have to beg silly sheeple like you to earn my living….

  40. Michael,

    I disagree….this is really about these “ministries” living opulant and lavish lifestyles without paying taxes…..this has nothing to do with their “Faith”…..

    These foks say they can speak things into existence by excercising their faith….if that were true then why haven’t they spoken away this mess they’ve gotten themselves into?

  41. Phil
    Where are these people living opulent and lavish lifestyles outside of what the word of God has promised? Did not God promise to bless those who followed Him? Did He not say that those that teach the Word of God are worth double honor? 2 of the 6 took their ministries info to the IRS and they have found absolutely nothing illegal being done by the ministries so, why is Grassley going after them?

    Grassley has no Constitutional right to personal and private information of the people who give into those ministries yet, he is he is asking for that confidential information which is unconstitutional. Why is no one is saying anything about his unconstitutional actions? That would because people do not believe in the doctrine that they are teaching. This has nothing to do with the facts that the ministries are doing nothing illegal. This is a blatant witch hunt carried out by a man who doesn’t believe what these ministries teach. Hey didn’t the pharisees do the same thing to Jesus? That would be yes. Why? Because Satan hates the truth.

    The sad thing about all of this is that Grassley will look at the word of God and see it says what these ministries are teaching and flat out deny it. God promises to meet everyone of our needs in Phillipians 4:19. Those needs include our Eternal Life which is our spiritual life, our emotional life, our physical life, our social life through our relationships, and our financial well being.

    Right now 2 have shown that they are doing nothing illegal according to the IRS with the third already giving their info to the IRS. When the rest are shown to have done nothing wrong what will people say then? The only thing they can say, forgive us because we accused you falsely. The sad this is is even though Grassley thinks he is going after people who are teaching falsely, he is only persecuting the Lord Himself. I suggest you take a look at what the one pharisee said about the twelve when they brought them in before the high priest. Did he not say that if this thing is not from God it will come to not and if this thing is from God how are you going to fight against God? That is paraphrased but, you can find it in Acts.

  42. Michael- Congress has a right to examine the finances of churches that receive tax-exempt status. If you don’t have a problem with these people buying airplanes and mansions with money that they have taken from the poor all the while claiming tax-exempt status you have missed the essence of the command to love your neighbor as yourself. I would be in favor of the elimination of the tax-exemption for churches, after all Jesus paid his taxes. In my city one-fifth of the property within the city limits is tax-exempt, which means I am supporting these churches with my tax money even though I disagree with everything they do. None of these wolves would even be in this business if they had to pay taxes and be accountable. It always amazes me how people who support this activity ignore the entirety of scripture for the few misused quotes these thieves have taught them.

  43. No boydmiller they do not. They do not have a Constitutional right to any confidential information to the people who are giving into those ministries and this is what Grassley is asking for. The IRS has the right to examine the finances of the churches that recieve tax-exempt status. That is the Internal Revenue’s Services job not our Congressmen or Senator’s.

    You sit here and say these people are buying mansions, cars, and airplanes and owning them. You are listening to what the media is saying about them and not the facts. The houses are all owned by the ministries and not the people themselves. They also have board of directors who give them salaries and their homes. The planes are not being used for personal business, they are being used for ministry business. Just because you don’t agree with the doctrine because your denomination teaches otherwise does not mean that they are doing anything wrong according to the word of God. If you have a problem with the doctrine, after seeing it in the word, I suggest you take it up with God because He is the one who gave us His Word.

    As far as your comment about Jesus paying taxes I suggest you remember the question Jesus asked His disciples about the topic. I then suggest you take a look at how he paid the tax. He didn’t pay it out of the tithe bag that held the tithes they took, he sent his disciple to catch a fish that gave him the money. How do you think Jesus made His money? I suggest you look at the robe Christ wore if you believe He was poor. The robe was so expensive the Roman soldiers rolled for it.

    Phil: Tithe bag? The robe they “rolled for” was given to Jesus to mock Him….I suggest you re-read the Gospels again Michael….

    If you are thinking about taxing the Word of Faith people you need to realize that their are denominations who have more money then they do. These denominations agree with your teaching of keeping the poor poor and not allowing God’s people to come into the fullness of all He has died to give them spiritually, emotionally, physically, socially, and financially.

    Phil: The WoF isn’t a denomination….its a movement…..all six of these “ministries” are independents Michael….

    I then would tread lightly on that topic also because you are telling God that you want His money taxed not these ministries money. You forget that the tithe is God’s, it is not man’s. The tithe funds God’s ministry in this world and it is you who would have it taxed because you disagree with the doctrine of these preachers. You are forgetting that it is God who has raised these people up and it is God who funds them, therefore you are talking against God.

    Phil: Tithing was and is an OT Law that Jesus came to fufill….and I suggest that it is people who fund these ministries due to a twisting of God’s Word, specifically Malachi 3….

    You are also not looking at the Word of Faith Movement that is happening all over the world. There are people that are poor and are destitute who just simply believe God can take them up from nothing to something. This is happening all over the world where huge churches are being built from people who have the word only and no money when they start. How can you deny that God is not doing this?

    I find it sad that you totally deny the first 14 verses of Duet. 28 where it plainly shows all the blessings that will come on you if you promise to serve God and do what He says. I find it concerning that you are a child of God and plainly deny these truths that are written from the old testament to the new testament. Whether you agree with their doctrines or not they cannot claim that Jesus is 1. the second part of the triune Godhead that gave up Him omnipresence, omniscience, and all His power 2.who had is title only while he lived as a man, living a life by faith 3. to take our punishement on the cross for us 5. who went to hell suffering in our place so that we may be free of sin and 6. raised from the dead having the keys of hell and death in His hand.. if they do not have the Spirit of God in them. In other words if they can make all of these claims they are saved and they are your brothers in Christ. If they are your brothers in Christ then the only person you are calling all these things is Jesus himself.

    Phil: Please show me Scripture where it plainly states that Jesus suffered in hell Michael and if you can’t then you have a very flawed understanding of the Atonement and Christ’s work in said atonement….

    I write this to you because I am asking you, as a brother in Christ, to please rethink your thoughts about these people. If they have fruit in their life and others are producing the same fruit it is God who is doing the growing. And if it is God doing the growing you are only talking about the blessing that God has promised people in His word for doing what He has said.

    Phil: I used to be one of those people who taught this flesh pleasing “Gospel” Michael….I personally see a LOT of bad fruit in these ministries lives….divorces, false prophecies, false teachings etc….

    Sorry Boyd….couldn’t resist:)

  44. Michael- The constitution provides that the state will not create a religion and that there will be no taxation without representation, and has nothing to do with tax policy, which can change anytime congress is in session.The IRS is a collection agency and falls under the control of the three branchs of our government and is constantly reviewed by congressional oversite. The blessing in Deu. 28 are for those who keep the law of Moses. We live in the new covenant. I will give you credit for your enthusiasm for this movement and you hit almost all of their talking points. Phil has some great articles about this movement and the 100 fold return you should read and consider. I hope that you come to a better understanding of the bible and the charactor of God before you lose everything you have. Most of us were taken in by these temptations too, but have seen the light.

  45. Phil: Tithing was and is an OT Law that Jesus came to fufill….and I suggest that it is people who fund these ministries due to a twisting of God’s Word, specifically Malachi 3….

    Phil you are in error. The only Law Jesus came to do away with was the sacrifical law. The law that the Hebrews did in order to cover there sin. Jesus did not do away with tithing. Paul taught tithes are taken now in the new testatment. In Hebrews 7:5-9. He shows that tithing was apart of Abraham before the Law, during the Law by the Levitical Priesthood and now by the church. You will find the part about here now men receive tithes in verse 8. No where in the Bible from cover to cover do you find any part of the O.T. done away with except the Sacrafical Law.

    Phil: Sorry mate….are any of these “ministries” or any other “ministry” Melchezadek? Jesus? Please see the following about giving dude;Matthew 6:1-4; 1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 8:11,12,14;9:6,7…..never is tithing mentioned in the NT as a requirement…..and I challenge you to show me where in the NT tithing is required….

    Phil: Please show me Scripture where it plainly states that Jesus suffered in hell Michael and if you can’t then you have a very flawed understanding of the Atonement and Christ’s work in said atonement….

    Phil you will find that Christ went to hell in Acts 2:27-31

    27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
    29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    Phil: The Bible doesn’t specifically state how long He spent in Hades…..but if you read this article it shoud help to clear this up for you;
    http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2005_CRM/DidJesusSufferInHell.html

    Phil: The WoF isn’t a denomination….its a movement…..all six of these “ministries” are independents Michael….

    Did I say it was a denomination Phil? That would be no since, Bishop Eddie Long is Baptist and the rest are Pentacostal. The Word of Faith movement is a teaching done from the Bible and it isn’t hindered by religious dogmas from confined denominations. People are coming to a place in God that is unified like the Bible teaches. No more is God going to have a people that are divided and arguing among themselves. Its time to mature and become the body of Christ we are meant to be.

    Phil: Ooops…my apologies and I forget Long thinks he’s a baptist….

    Phil: Tithe bag? The robe they “rolled for” was given to Jesus to mock Him….I suggest you re-read the Gospels again Michael….

    Yes Phil Judas carried the Tithe Bag. How do you think Christ made money, did He work? Or was He living off his savings? You are correct on the robe. I was thinking of the Old Testament where it prophecies that they rolled for the Messiah’s garments. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

    Phil: Its never refered to as a “tithe bag”……

    Phil: I used to be one of those people who taught this flesh pleasing “Gospel” Michael….I personally see a LOT of bad fruit in these ministries lives….divorces, false prophecies, false teachings etc….

    Flesh pleasing Gospels Phil? Let me ask you a question Phil, Do you live in America? And if so do you have a decent wage that you make? If you do then you wouldn’t know what poverty is. There are people in this world that have absolutely nothing and you are telling me that God doesn’t promise to Bless them in His word if they follow what He says to do? I suggest you reread Phillipians 4:19. I also suggest you look at Galatians 3 because we are blessed through Abraham and given His Blessing through Christ. We are made joint heirs with him through Christ. I guess that thought you have about the Old Testament not meaning anything is actually not correct since God is linking us all the way back through the Old Testament to Abraham before the Law.

    Phil: I live in Greece Michael….the average wage here is about 700 euro a month…..I’m extremely blessed because my job pays me what I would make in the states…..

    Once again if you have issues with the teaching these preachers are doing I suggest you take it up with God since He gave us His word on the subject of Him Blessing us in this physical world. You can continue to say the Word of Faith is taught by wolves but let me ask you one thing, what doctrine are you teaching people to get past what Satan is doing to them in the world? What promises do you have that will give them faith to show them that God will help them? or are you one of those people who tell them God is giving them this object poverty to teach them something? Let me ask you one last thing Phil if you had or if you have kids would you want to see them go on suffering through life? I know I wouldn’t and if that is me and I am a human, how much greater does God help those who trust Him?

    Phil: I have taken this issue up with God my friend…I agonized over the VERY realization that what I was teaching regarding health wealth and prosperity was wrong…..I was so ashamed when I realized what I was teaching was wrong and it took me 15 years to get back behind a pulpit….clearly you are heavily entrenched in this movement and it looks like no matter what I or anyone else says you will disagree….I will be praying for you Michael….

  46. Phil: The Bible doesn’t specifically state how long He spent in Hades…..but if you read this article it shoud help to clear this up for you;

    obviously the Bible does teach how long he was in hell since he was dead for three days and he rose the third day.

    hil: I live in Greece Michael….the average wage here is about 700 euro a month…..I’m extremely blessed because my job pays me what I would make in the states…..

    and you are blessed because God promised to bless you for serving him. This is no different than anyone who is poor who is saved. All they need to do is get God’s word and believe it. God blesses those who have faith in His word, end of story.

    Phil: I wasn’t serving Him Michael….I left ministry because I was ashamed…..I studied and studied and that was that….I returned to “ministry” when I came to Greece…

    Phil: Ooops…my apologies and I forget Long thinks he’s a baptist….

    Is there some reason why you are angry at these people Phil? You do realize that thousands of people get helped by this man and others who teach the truth. Why are you so adamant on trashing him and others when you yourself are an example of God’s physical blessing on this planet?

    Phil: I’m not angry at anyone….maybe their fleshly needs are being met but I don’t believe their spiritual needs are being met but of course we disagree on this:)

    Phil: Sorry mate….are any of these “ministries” or any other “ministry” Melchezadek? Jesus? Please see the following about giving dude;Matthew 6:1-4; 1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 8:11,12,14;9:6,7…..never is tithing mentioned in the NT as a requirement…..and I challenge you to show me where in the NT tithing is required….

    I already showed you that tithes were a part of Abraham before the Law, collected by the priests with the Law and in the Church now as Paul stated in Hebrews 7. If you wish to deny that it is there that is your error not mine.

    Where is your love walk for these people Phil. God said people would know that we are His children by our lover for the Church. These people, wether you accept it or not, are your brothers. It is going to be a sad day in heaven when God shows us the idle words we were speaking about His people when they have done nothing wrong. It is sad that you can’t see that your physical needs are met and God promised to do the same for anyone who doesn’t have the same as you, all they have to do is believe He will. It is in the Old to the New Testament. It is also sad that you don’t know anything about the sacrifical law and it being the only part of the Law Jesus actually did away with. Your faith is determined by your love walk and where is your love for these people?

    Phil: “Love walk”…..I haven’t heard that expression in quite a while…..are you by chance a pastor in the WoF movement?

  47. Btw Phil that link you sent contradicts the fact that Jesus was in hades, the departed place of dead souls. The physical body is not the soul so, that teaching has major flaws in it the size of the Titanic.

    Phil: Then by all means demonstrate for us the “major flaws” Michael….

  48. Phil: Then by all means demonstrate for us the “major flaws” Michael….

    If you cannot see that Jesus went to hell which is the place of departed souls then, you need to go back and reread Acts until God gives you a revelation that that is where He went.

    Jesus became our sin and what is the penalty for a man that dies in sin? If you don’t believe that Jesus became all of our sin then I suggest you go back and reread what Christ said on the cross to the Father. He was completely separated by sin from the Father. That is something He never had experienced ever. We also know that Jesus became sin because He died. Death came by sin, therefore if you have no sin then you cannot die because death has no power over you. Adam would have never died if he didn’t sin. If you don’t believe me then check out Romans 5:12. It would be a good idea to study Romans 3-5 to get the full picture about it.

    Phil: When Jesus was on the cross He said a couple of things that you fail to mention…..what does “It is finished” mean to you? Why did He tell the thief on the cross that “Today you will be with me in paradise”….unless He was confused and thought hell was paradise….what exactly is Abraham’s bosom Michael?

    In the sacrificial law that is what happens to the animal. The punishment for sins of the people were placed on the animal. It was a shadow of what was to come with Christ. When an animal dies it is dead and it is not judged. It does not have a spirit and just a soul so, it is not judged by God like mankind is for its deeds. This is why Jesus was the only one who could do away with the sin of mankind and not some animal. Jesus went and experienced everything a man experiences when they die in sin and this is the atonement that is salvation. This is why both David and Paul teach that Christ went to hell or hades and this is the reason why that teaching has flaws in it the size of the Titanic.

    Phil: You said “Jesus went and experienced everything a man experiences when they die in sin and this is the atonement that is salvation. This is why both David and Paul teach that Christ went to hell or hades and this is the reason why that teaching has flaws in it the size of the Titanic”.

    Phil: Hmmmmm……chapter and verse please Michael……the last time I checked He paid the price on the cross….or wasn’t that enough for you Michael?

  49. Phil: “Love walk”…..I haven’t heard that expression in quite a while…..are you by chance a pastor in the WoF movement?

    No Phil I am not a pastor in the Word of Faith movement, I am a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who told me to love my neighbor as much as I love myself. He also told me that the first law of the 2 I need to be concerned with is Love the triune-Godhead first and foremost before myself or man. I follow His teachings and I would hope you would be concerned with this as well since your love is what determines how well your faith works because we all know that faith worketh by love. We know this is true according to Galatians 5:6.

    Phil I do not deny that you love God and you believe that you are saying things that you feel are true but, I would like to ask you what feelings rise up in you with what you are teaching. I would also like you to take a long hard look at those feelings and ask yourself one thing, are these feelings and actions fruit of the Spirit or are they fruit of flesh?

    Phil: What do feelings have to do with this discussion? The facts are the WoF is a flesh based movement….wealth health and prosperity are all fleshly desires….Paul says we are to crucify the flesh which is a direct contradiction to what the WoF teaches…..I choose to follow Paul as he followed Christ……

  50. Phil: I have taken this issue up with God my friend…I agonized over the VERY realization that what I was teaching regarding health wealth and prosperity was wrong…..I was so ashamed when I realized what I was teaching was wrong and it took me 15 years to get back behind a pulpit….clearly you are heavily entrenched in this movement and it looks like no matter what I or anyone else says you will disagree….I will be praying for you Michael….

    Phil my God promises to meet everyone of my needs according to His riches in Glory in Christ Jesus. That is Phillipians 4:19. I could lead you from the OT to the NT where God Himself has promised to meet every believer’s need if they will simply follow Him and do what He says. If you feel you were wrong and needed to repent and it is in the Word of God why are you repenting? This makes no sense. God says all things are possible to them that believe. Sorry if you deny the word of God when it comes to God taking care of you physically Phil but, the Garden of Eden was just that, God taking care of man physically in every way.

    Phil: Where have I ever said that God doesn’t take care of our needs? What I have stated on this site and elsewhere is that the WoF wolves manipulate Scripture in order to take innocent or naive peoples money….for example….where in the NT does it ever say that we are required to tithe? Where in the NT does it ever say if we give to God he will bless us 100 times over? This is what I object to. They rip out little pieces of the OT laws or use feasts that were meant for someone else (Israel) and attempt to pass this off as modern day truths that amount to nothing more then a get rich quick scheme for the one doing the teaching….

    The sad thing about this site and many others is that this teaching goes back to the days when healing was something that wasn’t of God and anyone who taught that healing was of God was, to use your term, Sacrilegious. Now even those, for the most part who said healing wasn’t of God, agree that God heals. I do not understand the mindset of those who see God’s word and His truth plainly but, totally deny it. This makes me shake my head and say what is wrong with people that are God’s covenant people and they deny the fact of what Salvation the term means. Between both the term saved and salvation you have the definitions Eternal Life, Prosperity, Preservation, Protection, Wholeness, Soundness, Deliverance, and Health.

    Phil: If these truths were evident as you claim, why does TD Jakes need glasses….doesn’t he have enough faith to be healed? Would you consider a healthy marriage as evidence of God’s prosperity? If your answer is yes then why did Paula and Randy White divorce? Didn’t God protect them and preserve them because they claim to believe the same “truths” that you do.

    How is your life Michael? Are you wealthy and healthy? Are all your relationships sound? The wolves claim that all these things are part of prosperity that they expect you to PAY for with your tithes and offerings?

    Some people take salvation as meaning only Eternal Life and there is a lot more to the term than just Eternal Life. Those same people trash people who teach the entirety of the definition instead of one point like they shouldn’t. I will gladly stand teaching[ we all teach even if we aren’t in the pulpit] the entirety of God’s Word instead of what man says we should teach. Doing that is just like the Pharisees and I want nothing to do with limiting God as they did. Nor do I want any part in denying who and what the Messiah actually did for every human being on the face of the planet by his death, burial, and resurrection.

    Phil: Salvation is more then eternal life? You mean because I claim to be saved or have said a sinners prayer during an altar call that I should be wealthy and healthy during this lifetime……aren’t we supposed to store up our riches in heaven and not here on earth….

    BTW: You still haven’t shown me the Scriptures that sink the article I linked to….the one that had flaws the size of the Titanic? I’ve seen your opinion….now I want Scripture to back up your assertions that Jesus suffered in hell for three days for our salvation. Until you do consider yourself fininshed from posting on this thread…..

  51. Phil: You said “Jesus went and experienced everything a man experiences when they die in sin and this is the atonement that is salvation. This is why both David and Paul teach that Christ went to hell or hades and this is the reason why that teaching has flaws in it the size of the Titanic”.

    Phil: Hmmmmm……chapter and verse please Michael……the last time I checked He paid the price on the cross….or wasn’t that enough for you Michael?

    How can you pay a spiritual price in a physical world Phil? Once again Phil I ask you how can Christ die if he was not made mankind’s sin? You cannot die, death has not power over those, who have no sin. You nneed to seriously study the sacrificial law and what it is because you knowledge of it is not what it should be.

    Phil: Michael. Were the sacrificial laws in the Old Testament physical or spiritual? Were the OT Laws still in effect at the time of Christ’s death or did they change just prior to Christ’s death?

  52. why won’t you allow the things i just posted to be shown phil? why wont you look at the facts of what scripture teach?

    Phil: Michael….I haven’t deleted anything….I work very late on Mondays and well, I don’t live on the internet…..I’ll look at the other ELEVEN posts you made a bit later…

  53. I have posted the scriptures Phil and now you won’t allow that post to be shown. If you are going to delete a post because it is wrong fine but, to deny the facts of everything I posted is running from what the bible plainly teaches.

    Phil: You posted five minutes ago….am I supposed to sit here and wait all day for you to make more of your ramblings? Tell you what….why don’t you start your own blog and then you can state all the “truth” you like…..

  54. If what I post here is false Phil there is no reason to delete it. You should easily be able to silence a false teaching with scripture Phil. If I was wrong you could easily show me I am in error. If this isn’t error Phil and you are deleting it you are deleting truth and that isnt good. I will post this one last time and if you delete it we know where we both stand. God Bless you and keep you Phil and remember this one thing, Jesus plainly taught it is better to have a millstone wrapped around your neck and be tossed into the sea than to teach one to go astray.

    Phil: You know something Michael? You have falsely accused me of deleting your comments in roughly 9 of the 12 comments you made yesterday. When have I ever not posted what you have written? The answer was never until today…..I will be deleting most of your comments as they are repititious and accusatory…….

  55. Phil: When Jesus was on the cross He said a couple of things that you fail to mention…..what does “It is finished” mean to you? Why did He tell the thief on the cross that “Today you will be with me in paradise”….unless He was confused and thought hell was paradise….what exactly is Abraham’s bosom Michael?

    Yes Phil the physical side of the price was finished and then he died. He also told the theif today you will be with me in paradise. If you remember correctly Phil when you see Jesus you see the Father, when you see the Father you see Jesus and the Holy Spirit so, when Jesus went to hell and was suffering for us like Acts 2 says, the theif was in paradise with God. In other words Jesus told the thief you will be with God in paradise. If you remember correctly Phil there are 3 persons in the triune Godhead.

    Jesus also said that the Father had forsaken him. He was separated from the Father by sin. This is something that He had never known. What happens to a man that dies in sin Phil? He goes to hell and suffers awaiting his judgement. Jesus became our sin as I had posted prior and sufffered death for all men that die in sin. Where do all men who die in sin go Phil? They goto hell and suffer. Hence the reason both Paul and David said the Messiah went to hell. Yes hell the place of the departed souls. Jesus also said to Mary after He rose to not touch him because He had not arisen to His father. If He died and was with the Father how is this possible?

    Phil: What is your definition of Spiritual death Michael? How can a spiritually dead person as God to forgive them for they not know what they do?

  56. Phil: What do feelings have to do with this discussion? The facts are the WoF is a flesh based movement….wealth health and prosperity are all fleshly desires….Paul says we are to crucify the flesh which is a direct contradiction to what the WoF teaches…..I choose to follow Paul as he followed Christ……

    If wealth, health, and prosperity are fleshly desires why are they part of the definition that makes up the terms saved and salvation?

    saved comes from the greek word sozo. Sozo means to save, deliver or protect(literally or figuratively). It also means to heal, preserve, save(self), do well, be(make)whole.

    Salvation comes from the greek word Soteria. Soteria means rescue or safety(physically or morally). It means deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

    Now we have acts 2:21 that states….

    Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved[delivered, protected, healed, preserved, made whole].

    Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation[safety or physically or morally, deliverance, health, or salvation] in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Phil: I’m well aware of what the Greek word is…..I speak Greek dude….I live in Greece and study from the Koine Scriptures…..you need to learn the grammar and context my friend….he’s talking about eternal life and not the here and now..

    In just these two definitions we can see that there is health, deliverance, safety both physically and morally, wholeness , health, protection, preservation, and wholeness in only one and that is Jesus. All that shall call on Jesus are healed, delivered, have safety both physically and morally, are made whole, are healed, are protected, are preserved. How can you say that healing is a fleshy desire when Christ healed the sick constantly. All those people he healed had faith that he could heal them and that is why they got healed. We know that this is true because when Jesus was in his own town he could only heal a few sick folk. You can find this in Mark 6:1-6/Matt.13:54-58.

    God doesn’t force anything on anyone, he would be acting just like the devil if he did. Restudy every healing that took place in the Bible and you will find that the people Jesus healed believed Jesus could heal them. If health is a fleshy desire why does 1Peter 2:24 and Isaiah 53:5 teach that by Jesus’s stripes we are healed. Look up the word griefs in Isaiah 53:4 and you will find that Jesus bore our griefs. that word griefs is choliy in the greek. The word means malady, anxiety, calamity, disease, grief, sickness. We also have Matt 8:17 that shows Jesus took our infirmities and bore our sickness.

    I could go into the prosperity scriptures all over the bible but, you would rather say it is fleshly desires instead of God promising to bless those who serve Him.

    Phil: Please don’t…..

  57. Phil: I’m well aware of what the Greek word is…..I speak Greek dude….I live in Greece and study from the Koine Scriptures…..you need to learn the grammar and context my friend….he’s talking about eternal life and not the here and now..

    He is not talking about Eternal Life there Phil. You don’t need health in heaven because there is no sickness in heaven. You need healing on the earth where you battle with satan who is the one who brings sickness. If it meant eternal life Jesus Christ would not have healed anyone. God is the same today and forever. If he healed yesterday, today, and should Jesus not return he will heal forever. We know Christ is coming back so the time for healing will be over when he comes back. If it meant eternal life only Phil Jesus would not have taken our sickness and our infirmities. Why did you not respond to the fact that Christ could do no miracles in his own town?

    You just deny what the word teaches Phil and that is sad. God said all things are possible to them that believe. This includes healing and prosperity. Why do you deny these things Phil, this makes no sense at all.

    Phil: I haven’t denied anything. What I have said is the six ministries in question teach that we are to sow a seed for our “miracles” which is clearly unscriptural. The six ministries that you have come in here defending are filthy rich because naive people actually believe they must sow a seed for all their needs to be met…..it saddens me that you defend these rascals….

    You mentioned some greek words…..along with a half a dozen or so different meanings for said words. Greek is an EXACT language Michael….are you aware of this? These words you use may be the same but when spoken mean only ONE thing. I think it’s great you have your lexicon or strongs or whatever but these tools aren’t meant for use in a serious theological debate…kinda like bringing a butter knife to a sword fight.

    “by His stripes ye are healed” does NOT even imply physical healing Michael. Read the whole chapter to learn context to go along with your dictionary definitions…..you also misinterpreted Peters statement. Jesus did heal Peter’s mother-in-law but Jesus didn’t heal everyone Michael. The Pool at Bethesda is a prime example of this.

    Jesus does heal today but He doesn’t heal everyone. What about Timothy? Was he healed of his stomach afflictions? If not then why not Michael? Was it because he lacked faith….didn’t sow enough seeds?

    This will be our last exchange on this thread. Thanks for taking the time to attempt to correct me but you will need to do a better job then what I have just witnessed…..

  58. Phil: What is your definition of Spiritual death Michael? How can a spiritually dead person as God to forgive them for they not know what they do?

    The scriptures I have given you Phil plainly show there are two parts of death, 1 is the physical body dying and the 2nd is the second death that Jesus told us about where you are not in you body. If you are not in your body that would be you being spiritually separated from God in the flames of hell burning, just like Jesus taught us. This is the judgment that mankind receives after dying in their sin and it is known as the second death. These are the two parts of death and Jesus experienced these just like the Bible teaches because it teaches that Jesus experienced death for all men, once on the cross and when he went to hades for man[Acts 2:27-32].

    Phil: You still didn’t answer how a spiritually dead man could ask God to forgive those who nailed Him to a tree Michael. Why is that?

  59. Michael,

    I’ve watched this exchange on your position on spiritual death. hmmmm

    I do believe you have a big hurdle to cross on that one. You claim Adam didn’t die in the “day” he ate thus he could only have died spiritually…but that’s not necessarily so…

    Adam lived for 930 years….and God’s definition of a “day” can be understood in 2Pet 3….Day is used interchangably in the OT texts. It can be a 24 hour day, an age, or a timeframe.

    In fact, a spiritual death position very much denies the position you are making here that demands that the physical is healed along with the spiritual….and while I believe He will restore us physically, we aren’t there yet.

    The NT is a mirror image of the OT to some degree. Taking that into account, then we have been restored spiritually and after a long time period of time it will be physical – thus a bodily resurrection.

    Are you following me here?

    As a sidenote, I am a theonomist.

  60. Michael,

    One other thing – understanding the abyss of Rev 9, will clear up a lot of your issues up here with “where” these scriptures are talking about – as far as Jesus’ death burial & resurrection.

  61. Adam lived for 930 years….and God’s definition of a “day” can be understood in 2Pet 3….Day is used interchangably in the OT texts. It can be a 24 hour day, an age, or a timeframe.

    Gen 5 specifically shows the genealogy of Adam, this is not an age and the tree of Adam’s genealogy should let you know that God is not discussing a an age of time.

    In fact, a spiritual death position very much denies the position you are making here that demands that the physical is healed along with the spiritual….and while I believe He will restore us physically, we aren’t there yet.

    This does not deny the position that I am making. Spiritual death is something mankind experiences when they die in sin. When you die in sin you are sent to hell. In hell you await the judgment of God. Hell is the waiting place for the lake of fire. Christ taught there are two deaths and you cannot experience death physically twice so, one has to be spiritual death. Dorothy I would like to ask you one question, What happens to a man when they die in their sin not having accepted Jesus as savior? When you answer this I will continue with scripture proving what I am stating.

  62. Phil: You still didn’t answer how a spiritually dead man could ask God to forgive those who nailed Him to a tree Michael. Why is that?

    Do you understand Phil that when you don’t have a relationship with God through Christ you are spiritually dead. That is why Christ shall judge the quick and the dead. We find this here…

    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    The quick are those who are saved and the dead are the spiritual dead that are awaiting judgment in hell.

  63. Phil: I haven’t denied anything. What I have said is the six ministries in question teach that we are to sow a seed for our “miracles” which is clearly unscriptural. The six ministries that you have come in here defending are filthy rich because naive people actually believe they must sow a seed for all their needs to be met…..it saddens me that you defend these rascals….

    Do you even know how many orphans, widows and other things that these ministries do around the world Phil? Do you have an idea of how much they help people? What is your ministry doing to help people? I am not saying that they are helping anyone but, are they helping people around the world on the scale these ministries are? I bet you any amount of money that would be a no.

    You think these people just spend money on planes and homes etc. You have not even thought about actually looking into what they actually do with the money. It is a sad sad thing when people will look at the blessing of God and forget all that they had to do in order to get where they are or do to stay where they are. It is your right to trash people Phil but, what happens when you get before God and find out that they were doing absolutely nothing wrong? Do you realize who you are speaking against if they aren’t?

  64. “by His stripes ye are healed” does NOT even imply physical healing Michael. Read the whole chapter to learn context to go along with your dictionary definitions…..you also misinterpreted Peters statement. Jesus did heal Peter’s mother-in-law but Jesus didn’t heal everyone Michael. The Pool at Bethesda is a prime example of this.

    Do you realize that it is referring to Isaiah 53:3-5 Phil and it is dealing with your physical health. You don’t need to worry about physical health in heaven Phil, there is no sickness there. Satan has no rule in heaven Phil, the curse of the law can’t function there. If healing wasn’t physical why did Jesus heal all the people He did? Why in Matthew 8:17, after Christ healed people, it says that Isaiah stated that it is Jesus who took our infirmities and our sickness? I suggest you reread the texts and realize that it is physical as well as spiritual.

    You forget something else as well Phil one of God’s names is Jehovah Rapha, the Lord God our Healer. He heals us in every area of our life Phil. It is sad that you can’t see that God has done this in your life and you deny that He can do it in others. God is no respecter of persons Phil, if He will do it for one He will do it for another. This however, is based on our faith. Just like people who were in Jesus’ home town could would not believe so he could heal them vs. the people who he healed all over the place in his ministry. It is based on what you believe God can do for you. We know this is true because Jesus said this…

    Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

  65. Michael, your copy of the New Charsmatic Bible is awaiting delievery. Why don’t you just give your money to the poor rather than funnel it through these self-anointed bankers? Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Since you completely ignore all the scriptures about loving this life and have totally bought in to the WOF pyramid scheme, you probably know several 125 year old millionares in Texas, who are in perfect health, that sow into these businesses.

  66. Michael,

    You can’t defend these ministries nor is this investigation out of the realm of the law.

    You just want to argue for the sake of argument. You didn’t hear anything I said nor understand it, just decided you didn’t like it and it appears “your understanding and opinion is the only correct one”.

    I’ll withdraw…I never like to paticipate in one sided conversations. The only result is strife which I see plenty of here.

  67. Dorothy,

    We are suppose to reason together and go through the scriptures. I am not nor have I been angry through this entire thing. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. If you don’t believe this is true that is not lining up with the word of God. I still want you to answer my question Dorothy because I can prove to you in scripture that people are spiritually dead. Are we not suppose to look to the scriptures to learn the truth? Now please simply answer my question, What happens to a man when they die in their sin and have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?

    Phil: Yes Michael, we are to reason together but you don’t seem to want to reason. Yes, there are people who are spiritually dead….we know that. You claim Jesus suffered in hell and was spiritually dead…..the Scriptures say differently;

    1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Doesn’t say He suffered in hell nor that He was spiritually dead does it Michael…..

    All this has been interesting to say the least.

    When you didn’t get your way you told us about all the orphanages these folks build and then questioned what I do for the kingdom….which is what all you WoF folks do when you run out of excuses for defending these wolves.

    You know how they build orphanages Michael? They use YOUR money and take all the credit for it….they call you a partner so you feel special and unique but you don’t matter to them at all….wait you do. Your money matters to them. You are a nameless and faceless being in their world and unless you are in their inner circle you won’t get within spitting distance of the wolves you’ve come here to defend. Sad but true…

    Your money pays for the TV informercials they host so they can find more people like you to pay their bills and allow them to live the way they do. They convince you to sow a seed to meet your need but if it really worked the way they say it does they would be giving away all of their money. They don’t seem to do this do they? Why? Because they know it doesn’t work like that Michael…..

  68. boydmiller,

    I don’t have a copy of the New Charismatic Bible, I use the KJV or the Amplified backed up by Greek and Hebrew definitions. i follow what they word says and make sure to check up what the teachings are like I should. Anything that goes against God’s word I throw out as either 1. ignorance because the person didn’t fully study out the topic or 2. people who have taught a certain way and did not check out the information so it is hard for them to believe past what they have been taught.

    Do you know what the eye of a needle is? It is not specifically talking about the eye of a needle it is talking about a needle Gate that were around the walls of cities. You had to unpack your camel to get into the city. You are right boydmiller, it is difficult for those that are rich from the world’s system to enter into the kingdom of heaven but, what about prov.10:22 that says the Blessing of the Lord it maketh rich and he[the Lord], addeth no sorrow to it[the wealth the Lord gives you through the blessing].

    Whether you like it or not God has promised to take care of His children spiritually, emotionally, physically, socially, and financially. God’s word promises that He will do that. That is why He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If He did it yesterday, he will do it today, and forever. To say that He won’t contradicts the word. To say that He will bless someone and not someone else is to make God a respecter of persons and that is also against God’s word. God’s promises are for everyone and as Christ states, anything is possible for those that believe. If you don’t believe what God can do what His word says it can then it can’t. If you do believe then God can do everything He said in His word that He can do.

    Mankind limits what God can do by their belief or unbelief. We know this by Jesus being able to physically heal people in His ministry outside of His home town and not being able to heal people physically heal them in His home town. People outside of His home town believed He could heal them physically and those inside His home town didn’t believe He could. Where are your limits when it come God?

    I give my money to people God shows me to give to as I should. I have investigated those that I give my money to to make sure I am giving into a place that is doing the Lord’s work.

    Phil: Michael, you do have the New Charismatic Bible….you haven’t realized it yet:) You’ve been quoting from it since you arrived….

    If you give your money to one of the six ministries in my OP, then you haven’t really done your homework very well…..

  69. I’ll take 10 of those charasmatics Bibles please..sounds good to me! Why would God promise to do it for Israel and not for me as a believer that is endeavouring to live my life to please Him under a better Covenant?

    As for freemason senator Grassley what he is really saying is the IRS cant do their jobs because most of those ministries are audited each year.

    Acts 5:34-39 The third wisest man in the Bible

  70. ramz, you and Michael have bought in to Copeland’s bogus defense of the IRS’s jurisdiction. Sentator Grassley’s committee sets IRS policy and tax laws. It doesn’t matter if they are all audited every month by the IRS. The IRS does not make tax laws congress does. Since these family businesses wish to claim tax-exempt status under the banner of operating a charitable enterprise, their compensation as executives and amenities paid for by ministry funds should be public information. What do you suppose that they have to hide? The Roberts from ORU, although not included in this investigation, but however a leader in the pyramid scheme known as WOF, were recently caught using ministry resources(airplane) for their daughters senior trip along with a few of her friends. For those of us who work for a living this type of activity would be a firing offense. I suppose however if you are setting around waiting for the blessing of God to come to you out of someone elses pocket and in the process telling them if they give money to you that God will repay them 100 fold this must seem as natural as a tax-exempt Rolls Royce?

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