Women in Church Leadership: Biblical or Blasphemy?

Appointing women as church leaders seems to be a growing trend within the Body of Christ. Women such as Paula White, Medina Pullings, Juanita Bynum Weeks and Joyce Meyer, just to name a few, are calling themselves pastors, co-pastors, evangelists and teachers and are speaking and teaching in churches worldwide. Is this biblical or man made? I will be examining this very important subject the only valid way that I know how; through the Word of God.

I’d like to begin with the following Scripture;

1Ti 3:1 Faithful is the Word: If anyone reaches out to overseership, he desires a good work.

1Ti 3:2 Then it behooves the overseer to be without reproach, husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, well-ordered, hospitable, apt at teaching,

1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not contentious, not greedy of ill gain, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous,

1Ti 3:4 ruling his own house well, having children in subjection with all honor.

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man does not know to rule his own house, how shall he take care of thechurch of
God?)

An officer of the church must be the husband of one wife. That means an officer of the church must be a man. There’s no gray area here. This is God’s Word and should be taken seriously. The Word of God disqualifies Meyer, White, Pullings and Weeks from their leadership roles and contradicts their claims of being “called” to ministry. Just like Eve, these ladies have been deceived.

The Apostle Paul continues on about a woman’s role in the church;

1Ti 2:9 In the same way also, I desire that women adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and sensibleness, not adorned with braiding, or gold, or pearls, or costly clothing, 1Ti 2:10 but with good works, which becomes women professing godliness. 1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 But she will be kept safe through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sensibleness. 

Paul is stating how women should dress and behave in public places. They are to refrain from expensive clothes and jewelry. Godliness should be seen in how they live their lives and not on how they dress.  False women teachers of today appear worldly in their dress and manner and hardly resemble the type of Godly women Paul exhorts them to be.

Women are expressly forbidden to teach the Word of God in public gatherings of the saints. They are not to be pastors, co-pastors, deacons, elders or evangelists as these are positions of authority. A woman being placed in these roles is un-biblical and shouldn’t ever occur within the Body of Christ. Any woman claiming a “calling from God” to hold office in the Body of Christ is contradicting God’s Word and is either self called or deceived by Satan.

Paul adds this for good measure;

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says. 1Co 14:35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church. 1Co 14:36 Or did the Word of God go out from you? Or did it reach only to you? 

This includes prophecy. Women are to be silent in regards to teaching in the church. this isn’t my rule but God’s Rule. Why would Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, tell us repeatedly that women aren’t allowed to teach or hold office in the church if God called some women to teach, preach or pastor or be an evangelist? The answer is He wouldn’t.

What did Paul instruct the women of the church to do?

Tit 2:3 Let the aged women likewise be in reverent behavior, not slanderers, not enslaved by much wine, teachers of good; Tit 2:4 that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, Tit 2:5 to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, subject to their own husbands, that the Word of God may not be blasphemed.  

Women are supposed to teach the young women to love their husbands and their children. Godly women are to teach other women how to be Godly and to be great examples for other women to follow. They’re supposed to teach their children about honoring God and following Christ. They are NOT supposed to be preachers, teachers, pastors or evangelists.

Paul didn’t have anything against women. He was privately instructed by Priscilla and prophesied over by Philip’s four virgin daughters. These prophesies and teachings weren’t done in public but in private. Timothy was taught the Word by his mother and grandmother privately. This is perfectly acceptable and God expects this from women.

One of the most amazing testimonies I have ever heard was by a woman. To hear of how God had changed her life and was working through her was extremely powerful and it was important for the Body to hear. This exceptional lady was used by God to reach dozens of people through her spoken testimony without teaching or preaching. This is perfectly acceptable and should be done more often.

God’s Word emphatically states that women are not to hold any leadership positions in our churches. Women are not meant to preach, teach, evangelize or prophesy in our churches or even in public gatherings of the saints. Those women who are currently claiming leadership positions in the church are going against the Word of God and must repent. Anyone who sits under these women leaders must leave these unbiblical churches immediately.

I’m ready to take some heat from this article. I’m open to hearing your point of view on this very important subject. Please, don’t offer your personal opinions but use Scripture to prove your points and to correct my error, if indeed I am in error.  

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70 thoughts on “Women in Church Leadership: Biblical or Blasphemy?

  1. In my entire lifetime, I’ve never felt that women should be pastors, bishops, ministers, etc. I will NOT listen to them. This is one reason I was unaware of the false doctrines of these so-called female preachers. I really can’t stand to hear them preaching and carrying on in the pulpits. I will, however read accounts of them and what they preach and believe, such as what I’ve been reading on Independent Conservative’s and the Pulpit Pimps websites, both of which have led me to many other good, informative sites that don’t mind pulling the wool off the wolves and exposing them for what they really are, but to sit down and listen (in person or on TV) to any woman trying to preach is just not something my soul or spirit has any ease with.

  2. Thanks for your comments.

    In the next day or so, I will be posting a 25 minute sermon that shows that Joyce Meyer teaches false doctrines, IN HER OWN WORDS.

    It will shock you what she teaches.

  3. I have been brought up to believe that a woman does not belong in leadership positions in the Church, and I absolutely agree with the references you give. But there are two points that I am confused on:
    1. How does this align with 2 John? Is the apostle addressing a woman elder or not?
    2. Does it also mean that the leadership of a woman’s bible-study group should be conducted by a man. Or can this role fall under the Titus 2 model of a godly woman?
    I look forward to your wisdom on these two areas.

  4. Hi Clogger,

    Thanks for your comments and questions. I’ll answer them in the order that you asked.

    1). John was addressing himself as the elder, not the Christian lady he was writing to.

    2). This has always been a grey area (at least for me). Priscilla instructed Paul (Acts 18:26). Timothy was instructed by his mother and grandmother (2Timothy 1:5). Does a womens Bible study group fall under these circumstances? If it falls under a formal setting like Sunday School or a conference, the Bible clearly says that women aren’t allowed to teach (1Corinthians 14:34, 2Timothy 2:12). As far as informal settings, the Bible has the above mentioned instances where women taught, but taught within the confines of their homes. Because this is unclear, I would personally stick to what I do know, that women aren’t permitted to teach outside of the home.

    My best advice Clogger is to pray this through and if there is anyone out there who has a better grasp of this subject, please feel free to correct me if I am in error.

  5. I believe that God created man which was Adam, then he extracted his rib from the right side and created woman, which was his equal counter-part. My comment is directed to all of the men who call themselves “Men of God” that don’t respect their counter-parts as human beings. You have to understand that in order to follow God you have to be able to move in the dimension that he’s currently in. Obviously, you need to pick up your bible again and READ it in the fullness; better yet pray that the HOLY SPIRIT lead and guide to completely understand what the lord is saying! Then read it.

  6. phillyflash,

    I found your blog today while looking up Paula and her blasphemous teaching in the Day of atonement. Sad case, but what are we to expect?

    Back to topic, I do not know or understand how anyone can study the Bible and argue that women have a place in pulpit ministry, and especially with adult men in view. It smacks of self-will and rebellion.

    A lady was over at my blog recently crusading this. She did a lot of twisting of Scriptures, and it was all I could do to keep civil.

    Please keep up the work you do here. It may not be a popular task, but it is needful.

  7. Thank you for your biblical explanation on woman
    preaching in church. I agree whole-heartedly.

    Lenore Green

  8. “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophecy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit” Joel 2:28-29 Peter referred to this in Acts 2:14-19
    When Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, He didn’t just promise it to men only, it’s for us all. John 16:13 According to Eph 4:5-16 there is one body, on spirit–the body of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the edification of the church. ALL spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit–to whom he choses to use, to those who are called according to his purpose. 1 Cor 12:4-31 lists spiritual gifts that are given by the spirit of GOD.
    Deborah (Judges ch 4) was a prophetess and a judge used by GOD “openly” to declare the word of the LORD. Anna was a prophetess who dwelled “openly” in the temple; she fasted and prayed night and day and saw the baby Jesus.
    We are to be led by the “spirit of GOD” –Romans 8:14-17 not by the flesh or our carnal mind, it’s emnity against GOD–Romans 8:5-9
    At the time that Paul wrote about women in the Corinthian church, the women were keeping up a bunch of mess so he was addressing that church about their women. Paul was speaking by permission, not commandment just as he did in 1Cor ch 7 about marraige. It’s the “anointing” that destroys the yokes, not our gifts because our gifts operate without repentance. This is clearly seen in some ministers today.
    In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says that HIS thoughts and ways are NOT our ways and HIS thoughts and ways are HIGHER than ours.
    Instead of the body of Christ fighting against one another over what we clearly don’t know or understand unless GOD reveals it to us, we need to be out there winning souls because He says in HIS word that “the harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few”–Matt 9:37 We are one body with many members that can’t function one without the other. If we follow the spirit of GOD and not man, the spirit of GOD will lead and guide us into all truth.

  9. I wonder how many are still pushing for slavery/servants today and would still support slavery, being as how the scriptures encouraged slaves/servants [Ephesians 6:5, 1 Peter 2;18] to obey their masters with fear and trembling? Thank God, for the abolishment of slavery and for freedom/liberty to those who were oppressed by it [and that happen after the new testament was written]. Do you think that God has sent every slave owner to hell that released their slaves? It is really sad that Christ died for ALL (including WOMEN) to be free, but yet there are individuals that attempt to keep women in bondage, by using scriptures out of context. As the person stated above from the passage of Joel, it was declared that your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophesy [prophesy means to proclaim, which would support preaching/declaring]. And let me add this for those of you who would say the scriptures was talking about “thus says the Lord prophecies…” . There would have been no need for Joel to make that distinction because women were already known to be prophetess [old & new testament] before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Deborah was God’s chosen woman, a prophetess and she judged and led the people of God. And as the individual stated earlier you must consider the scripture in context about women usurping authority and learning in silence. To those of you who are jumping on the bandwagon, take the time to study the word of God, and gain insight through the Holy Spirit. Also, find you a local pastor/church to teach you and instruct you with the scriptures [not an internet pastor, who you know nothing about their credentials or if they are even in a position to handle God’s word] Christ paid the price that ALL might be FREE! And the Holy Spirit open the prison doors! Be free women and come forth!!! In the beginning it was the order and heart of God for man AND woman to have dominion, nothing has changed!

  10. I take it you are a lady pastor?

    You failed to address ANY of the numerous Scripture references offered which tells me you only pick and choose what you want to see to validate this “calling” you think God has placed on you for pastoral ministry.

    Your slavery analogy is flawed but expected when someone is trying to eisegete Scripture to fit their purposes.

    Read your Bible again sister and try and be a little more honest with yourself about your “calling”.

    Phil

  11. WOW! Reading this has made me realize how far we have fallen from the Word of God with is the Bible. God forgive me because I am a sinner in need of repentance.

  12. I suggest that folks really start rightly dividing the word as well as studying to show thyself approved. Most of what I have read in this blog is really sad. Its very interesting how people tend to read a scripture and then fail to seek the face of God to hear what he has to say about it.

    First and foremost, as one posted already the reason Paul gives this direction that women are to be silent in 1Corinthians 14:34, was because of the disorderly behavior that was taking place. Contrary to the first bloggers
    comments. I suggest you take a seminary class on the Pauline Writings, it is covered there.

    In addition to that does not the word of God state there is no male nor female in him. does Paul himself not commend the women jsut a few chapters before his giving this instruction, that women were not to speak.

    Again another blogger has hit the mark on the head. Man can not think with God nor should he or she attempt to think that they know the mind of God.

    Now the reality is that he did command Deborah to be the Judge and Prophet. As well as Anna. Was not Helda a prophetess as well who told Manasseh to repent and mourn in sack cloth and ashes because the book of the law was found in the house and the laws had been violated.

    The reality is most of our churches are made up of the majority of women. If we had to wait on a man to come in and teach and preach, nothing would possibly get done in some churches.

    Joel does state that he would pour out his spirit upon all flesh. ALL means men and women.

    It would be really foolish to think that God only will use a man to be his mouth piece. He used the doneky to speak to the mad prophet Baalam.

    Furthermore, what is it to Preach. To preach is to proclaim the word. Therefore as a christian male or female, is it not your duty to proclaim the good news to all regardless of a pulpit or platform.

    Stop majoring in the minors! I can’t speak for anyone else neither do i need to. For only I know the discussions that the Lord has had with me regarding my life, call and ministry. Likewise the same is for those women who preach, teach and evangelize the WORD of GOD!

    Another thing you must consider is what these women you call false teachers, are they teaching the unadulterated word of God? Do they not preach and teach the scriptures as written? That should be your main concern, no that it is a man or woman, but whomever is preaching ensuring that is the GOD inspired word.

    Some of the things that I have read is almost enough to cry. Thats just like when Paul said women should cover their heads when praying and some one took it upon themselves that women were to wear doilies. Again that is a misinterpretation of the word.

    I suggest folks stop worrying about who is preaching but be more concerned with what they are preaching and home many lives are being saved by the preached word!

    Get it together Saints.

  13. it is amazing how much twisting of Scripture woman preachers and others do in order to justify their actions as woman preachers and their ideas of equality that they get from the world rather than from the word of God.

    when it comes to 1 Cor 14:34-38 or 1 Tim 2:11-14 people that want to ignore those passages usually come up with some absurd reasoning saying something like, ‘that passage only applies to the church of Corinth’ or ‘this and this was going on at the time and thats why Paul had to address that issue’. the reason for women remaining silent in the church is addressed very clearly in verse 35 where it says ‘for it is shameful for women to speak in church’. for- is the word ‘gar’ in the Greek and is used for assigning reason. just like how the English word ‘for’ is used to address a reason, which can also mean ‘because’. the reason for their submission was because ‘it is shameful for women to speak in church like what the Bible says. this is the order that the Lord – who is the head of the church wants.(verse 35-37) not man. its not because certain things were taking place in the church of Corinth or all those excuses and stories people come up with to push aside that passage of Scripture.

    also 1 Tim 2:11-14. once again, women preachers and feminists come up with ‘well.. at that time, there were certain women that were acting up and teaching false doctrine.. and its just a ‘temporary’ command from Paul’ but what does the Bible say about why they are not to teach or have authority over a man? the reason is listed right after the clear teaching.. verse 13-14 ‘For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.’ unlike all the twisting of Scripture people do, and false reasonings people come up with, the reason for this was because ‘Adam was formed first, then Eve’. it doesn’t follow a cultural reasoning or a temporary thing, it follows Gods creation order. the reason for woman not being permitted to teach or to have authority over a man is because of Gods creation order of mankind and what role God has assigned to each gender.

    the devil wants to come up with all kinds of false ideas to make the people of God disobedient to His Word. we shouldn’t be deceived by his tactics and must remember what he said to eve when he first deceiving her.. “has God indeed said…”
    today hes saying the same thing to especially woman preachers.. ‘has God indeed said…?” (you cant be Pastors and teachers?)
    the Word of God is perfect. trust in it. lets not be deceived..

  14. Greeting my brothers and sisters!! I’ve taken a few minutes of my time to read the comments on women in leadership postions in the church. Let’s us get an understanding the church is a spiritual organizism made up of born again believer, Jesus is the organizer, the head and the foundation. Yes the role of the woman has become controversal in our time, but we must be very careful to observe the spiritual law of God that we will not remain blind to what the spirit of God is saying or trying to accomplish in our lives.
    From what I’ve read many of you have valids point but remember we must not add nor take away from what God is saying to the church. God is the same today, yesterday and forever more when he commands something of his people it doesn’t make a different whether its old testament or new testament. My belief is that God can use whom he please any time he choose to do so, but the question is will he change what he has already put in place, such as order. I read that God is the Head of Jesus, Jesus is the Head of Man and Man is the Head of Woman, I read that God created Adam from the dust of the ground and breath into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul, later God saw the Adam didn’t have a help meet, so he cause a deep sleep to fall upon him and he took a rib and made the woman and brought her to Adam and he name her Eve. So without a doubt God set the stage in the Garden who was to lead and who was to walk by his side, my belief is if he wanted to change the headship, when Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of good and evil the timing would have been perfect because Adam had fail the test to oversee. The bible stated that God walked through the Garden in the cool of the evening and ask for Adam which signify who God recognized and the authorative figure which was Adam. Not only that when God began to punish them he stated to the woman I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conceptionl in sorrow thou shalt bring forth childrenl and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. So it is hard for me to image that God would place a woman over men in any leadership role in the modern day church, but I believe that they are to work with us and walk by our side in order for there to be complete harmony. I read the story on Deborah yes she was a Judge over God’s people be sure to recognize that she was doing a civil duty at that time because if you read and understand she never did try to take charge over Barak she just support him according to what God had given her through prophecy, there is a different in obey God verse following after our own fleshly desires. Seek God face diligently and let the spirit of God have his way in your life and you will find the truth. Jesus said if ye are my disciples continue in my word and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

  15. What does each of us know absolutely for certain? Our own personal conversion. That’s why personal testimonies are so compelling, often leading to the listener’s salvation. When I was first saved I told the salvation story to my disbelieving girlfriend who ran in horror to the bathroom where she continually flushed the toilet in order to drown out the sounds of me and my newly saved buddy praying fervently for her. Within a few weeks she too had asked Christ into her heart and was born again. Some time later, through much prayer, fasting, counselling and discernement, she felt led by the Spirit to leave her career in nursing and attend Bible College. As we prayed together, I constantly asked God those same questions, yet never felt His call on my life for full-time ministry. My wife excelled in Bible college, graduating well above average. What astonished me, during graduation ceremonies, was when the college President pulled me aside, offerring to “fast track” me through the same material in short order so that we could become the next poster couple in full time ministry. I was shocked and dismayed.
    Doors slowly opened for my wife in ministry, however, it became clear that, for female Bible college grad’s, the positions available were glorified baby-sitting jobs or prospective Pastor’s wives. Since mine was already married, and the coffee at home was usually made by the first one up in the morning, there appeared to be little room for advancement.
    The thing I admire most about my wife is her tenacity and grace under pressure. She knew God’s call upon her life and never complained about behind-the-scenes ministry. Her faith never waivered when young men with less experience, less talent, less comittment and less ability, were routinely parachuted into pulpits. Her favourite scripture sustained her through those years as she kept “her eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and finisher of her faith”.
    Today she is Senior Pastor of a large and growing cosmopolitain church with a staff of 7 Pastors plus office administrators.
    I’m not debating all the scriptures offered in earlier posts; I’m simply relaying what actually happenend and continues to bear much fruit. Something that only a fool would say was not God’s will.

    P.N: Do you believe the bible is the infallible Word of God? I do and the Bible clearly states that women are to not hold positions of leadership within the Body of Christ. Please show me anywhere in the New Testament where I am in error.

  16. P.N.: Rather than rehash scriptures quoted in earlier posts, I purposely referrred to my own experience. You’ve done your homework and chosen your position; a position which I did not challenge. Surely you realize, as a male spouse of a senior Pastor, this is not the first time I’ve encountered resistance. So I’ve likewise done my homework, long ago and continuing, to arrive at my position; a position that does not discount or misquote biblical teaching on the subject. So I have to defer to Timothy’s admonition to avoid profane and vain babblings, foolish and ignorant disputes. I have no axe to grind with you; I simply added my comments to the ongoing discussion. In closing, Yes; emphatically. I believe God’s Word to be infallible. It’s our own understanding that is fallible, so we keep praying, seeking and learning.

  17. Spouse,

    Thanks for the response.

    Why would Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, instruct us on the proper roles of men and women in the church?

    Who is the head of your household, you or your wife? If she submits to your authority as head of your household, how is it that you can submit to her authority as head of your church? Paul says they are both one and the same.

  18. The problem I see with Spouse’s position is that it was arrived at by attempting to reconcile God’s clearly spelt-out guidelines with his wife’s experience. That is dangerous.

    That there are ‘results’ to point to in her situation (or anyone’s situation) also gives no validity to experiences that contradict what is written. We must be careful not to fall into the trap of pragmatism, afterall Jesus said some would work miracles in His Name and still be thrown out. Obedience to the word is the valid test of all things.

    Gracefulcm, yes; in Christ there is neither male nor female. But that simply means God’s salvation is available to both genders. Its a different issue from roles different genders play in the Body.

    Also, God pours out His Spirit upon daughters and sons. Again, it is a reference to the gift of salvation.
    We see from Scriptures that women may preach the Gospel in the sense of personal witnessing, prophesy – and even teach other women. But the issue of authority – the pulpit inclusive – is a different matter. All Scriptures that address authority in the Church are clear on the matter.

    The new testament is clear on this issue. I had to do a u-turn myself and submit to God’s clear instructions.

    Finally, I would appreciate if responders address the points/Scriptures that clearly point out that the pulpit belongs to men only. God’s Word must be final in all matters, or else we will get hurt somewhere along the line.

  19. C’mon Phil; this one isn’t even a challenge. Suppose for instance that my wife were a police officer. When she’s under my roof, not wearing the badge, she’s under my covering, headship, authority, however you wish to describe it. When she’s on duty, wearing the badge, and I decide to rob a convenience store, obviously she’s the one with the authority to arrest me and charge me with the offence. Though Paul isn’t here to ask, I’m sure he’d agree that “both are one and the same” woman.

  20. Spouse,

    Your wife has no business being a pastor. This is clearly backed up by Scripture. If Paul were here today, he’d tell you both the very same thing.

    I appreciate your “experiences” but your “experiences” directly contradict Scripture which either makes God out to be a liar or your “experience” to be against what God clearly ordains through His written word.

    Your wife needs to resign and repent because she is clearly going against the Word of God.

  21. As I leave this website, I feel dirty. You bloggers set yourselves up as the lords of truth and use the Scriptures as your hammer. I have no idea about who these women are you hate but I am a woman and decided long ago no one except the Spirit of God would lead me to speak or not. I hate
    Christian blogs. I find yours to represent little of who Jesus is. Find a better life.

  22. I agree with the scripture totally, women are not to have spiritual authority over men. The truth hurts, however, we must let it have its way with us if we want to be called the children of God. To all the female “pastors” , do not let your experience however miraculous or “god-directed” deceive you. Do not forget that the god of this world can do miracles, we are told to try the spirits and to be like the Bereans, therefore, any spirit that is directing a woman to be the Head of a Church – the body of Jesus Christ, is not of God.

  23. Old Testament Deborah judge over all Israel. Luke 2:36 Anna a prophetess serving with the priests in the temple. Romans 16:1-2 Phebe a deaconess serving with Paul. Acts 8:12 Men and women baptized. Philippians4:3 Women were Paul’s fellow workers that laboured in the gospel. Acts 10:34 God is not a respecter of persons. Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another. Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek; MALE nor FEMALE for you are ALL ONE IN CHRIST.

  24. I believe their are specific roles for men and women ordained by God. However, there are times when I do volunteer work with the homeless and have led many men to the Lord. I feed them and teach them about Jesus. My husband is the head of our house; he’s only been saved a short time and he asks me questions about the Bible. If women are not to teach in church — then why is it okay for females to teach Sunday School or children’s ministries or ladies ministry. Teaching is teaching. You say it’s alright for women to teach in these areas but that isn’t what 1 Ti 2:12 says according to you; it says for a woman not to teach. So, if you say a woman can teach in these specific areas and never behind the pulpit that’s hypocrisy. You can’t pick and choose. You have to immediately remove every woman in your church who teaches. Oh, and don’t greet any of the women because they are supposed to remain silent in church. If at anytime the women in your church speak while in the church building you should ask them to leave. They have to remain silent while in the church. Don’t leave that part of the scripture out. So, if you fellowship with, speak too, or greet a woman while in your church building, again hypocrisy. You can’t take just part of a scripture and forget about the rest. I guess the women who laboured in the Gospel with Paul used sign language.

  25. Amen Teresa!

    Since no man wants to teach adult or senior adult Sunday schoo (or knows enough Bible to do it) l I should have refused – I sinned against God for the past year – on no!

    Since I am the only one called into the ministry, my Pastor was in error to allow me to preach when he was out of town (again we don’t have anyone called (anointed) to do that at this time, except me). I sinned again.

    Finally when Jesus commanded us to go preach the Gospel, He didn’t mean me. He meant for the men (most men do not attend church) to do it. So on the day I met Him, I can say, I was a woman so I stayed home and told no one and He will be very pleased with me.

    I doubt it. He called me and that is that! It is not something I wanted or asked for and even tried to run away from, but guess what – when your called, you better do it. Don’t look what happened to Mrs. Woodsworth-Etter.

    As I travel around the US and Canada teaching God’s word at campgrounds I will remember not to say a word and let people go to Hell instead. Not!

  26. I held a feminist theology position at one time and argued for woman’s rights to the pulpit, but I must say that when I literally searched the scriptures for myself, I could no longer support women in that role. I do consider it blasphemy and imho God’s word supports it.

    Men and women have roles. They are different. I’ve seen much emotional argument that tells me many women here have not searched scripture for the answers. I see scripture ripped out of context in some of these posts to support a view that just isn’t Biblical.

    1Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Eph 5:23-24 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

    God is the Head of Christ and Christ submits to His Will.

    Man is the head of the wife and she is subject to his will in everything.

    Man represents Christ.
    Woman represents the Church.

    By a woman usurping the authority of her husband, it is the same as the Church usurping the authority of Christ.

    It’s that simple, yet I see so many women who want to deny it. I can only encourage them to reconsider their position.

    I would like to thank the author of this article for speaking the truth. It is a teaching that is most needed today.

    Dorothy

  27. Phil,

    I’ll take this on. Actually my rebuttal will also cover the ORU interim guy.

    I’ll get to it this late this afternoon. I have to work this morning.

    May I add, that feminist theology is one of the biggest lies ever told women. The damage it has done to the family unit is immense.

    Dorothy

  28. It’s really not easy to accept this teaching. But I must commend the women on these blog that boldly support it.

    If you have the right approach to God’s word, it will be easy for you to adjust. Whose cause are you fighting anyway? You claim God called you. But hey! God’s word says it aint possible for you to be called the way you claimed. If you are truly on the Lord’s side you will gladly step down.

    Phil,

    The problem plaquing most of us is about knowing the will of God. Most christians based their lives on what they claimed the ‘Spirit’ said. If we can accept that the only way God leads us is by His infallible Word, it will not be difficult to accept that women do not have a palce on the pulpit.

  29. Golda,

    I have printed out the article you linked and reviewed it today. Now the first few paragraphs of an article often helps to establish the platform and the platform of this article is that

    1. “MANY churches tread women down and use their faulty theology to justify their positions”
    2. “(hypocritically) they are allowed to teach Sunday school.
    3. cannot think of one theology or theory that is justified by one verse – let a matter be firmly established by 2 or 3 witnesses

    So let me address these in order:

    1. I have heard of “some”, not many, churches that use faulty theology to justify treading down women. I have yet to encounter one that isn’t a cult. So I’m far from being able to justify it as a credible position to prove women have equality. That’s like saying don’t ever go to the hospital because people are known to die there.

    2. Sunday school. Where in scripture do you find the Sunday school? It was established during the 1600’s in America as elementary school to provide teaching to children and in Europe in the late 1700’s to provide education and moral training to the poor on their one day off per week. There is nothing in scripture that prevents women from teaching children, so to say it is hypocritical sounds more like a scare tactic.

    3. Now to the most important topic…I agree totally that a matter is firmly established by 2 or 3 witnesses. The problem with this article is that is uses the incorrect 2 or 3 witnesses. So at this point the article has already made 3 bad assumptions and from that point on, their entire argument is useless. If they want to argue women’s roles, then they need to use the correct proof texts.

    I’ve picked 4 scriptures to highlight to establish the role of women. Paul was very clear about the position of women.

    1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ(1); and the head of the woman is the man (2); and the head of Christ is God (3).

    Eph 5:23-24 For the husband is the head of the wife (2), even as Christ is the head of the church (1): and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ (1), so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing (2).

    Here are Paul’s points

    1. The head of every man is Christ
    Christ is the head of the Church
    The Church is subject to Christ
    2 The head of woman is man
    The husband is the head of the wife
    Wives are to be subject to their husbands
    3. The head of Christ is God.

    Paul didn’t have any problem establishing women’s roles. To say Paul taught equal roles in these texts is just not true.

    So what did Paul teach? Right here in these texts we have the authority structure but there is even more to be learned from these 3 pillars of truth.

    We find in 1Cor that Christ is subject to God. I don’t believe you would disagree with that. We are also told that the husband is the head of the wife EVEN AS Christ is head of the Church. So the husband is the physical representative of Christ.

    In Eph 5:23-24 We are told that just as the Church is subject to Christ SO LET the wives be subject to the own husbands in EVERYTHING. So the wife is the physical representative of the Church.

    The Church does not have authority over Christ, nor is it equal in authority to Christ. Period.

    The feminist theologians will deny that structure every time.

    Then we find the real clincher in Titus:

    Titus 2:3-5 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things–that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

    “admonish young women to be obedient to their own husbands that the word of God may not be blasphemed.”

    Now if you want to know what women can do, then I can talk about that too. We have very vital roles, but they are not equal roles with our husbands. Even in Paul’s day, slaves were still subject to their masters. They did not have equality in roles. They had equality in inheritance. BIG DIFFERENCE.

    I hope this will make you think about what position is Biblical versus what is rebellion.

    Dorothy

  30. Hi Naomi,

    I think I’ve repeated it three times now on this site. LOL

    Sometimes, I’m not sure I say it for others to hear or God keeps me repeating it so I don’t forget and return to feminist theology. It’s kind of like reminding your husband to take out the trash since it’s Wednesday because on a Wednesday, 5 years ago, he forgot. LOL

    Scripture has some pretty high hedges and we must accept the fact that they are there and there for a reason. They are built to keep us in line with the will of God.

    Now if others look at those hedges and want to try and hack them down, then I just have to question what side of the hedge they’re on at the moment.

    Dorothy

  31. Hello
    Interesting things same old topic …More trash to take out .I am sorry but I felt some things were not properly dealt with.
    I feel I call unnecessary attention to myself if I stand on a pulpit even to give a testimony in church is…difficult…So as you might guess I have no interest in teaching ,preaching or even having authority over…And I believe in a proper structure in my home and in the church,also that men and women have different roles.
    Also where I worship women have no business near the pulpit (except to clean it ..just joking).What a relief (Phew !)

    But let there be no gray shades cos then I smell hypocrisy….
    But what about teaching kids should I teach my kids at home like Timothy’s mum and But grandmother did .You would say Yes you can teach at home but not in a public
    gathering. Fine

    What of children in church during the Sunday service is it right….. Shouldn’t a man take this or maybe we should cancel this since they probably didn’t have this service for children?

    What about testimonies can a woman speak and give one publicly..YES of course (but she shouldn’t speak ?)..this is not preaching or teaching ..Some women I know give their testimonies based on what God is teaching them from the Bible. Is this still a testimony or this is preaching and should be STOPPED.

    Remember house fellowships..This is what the Christians had not CHURCH.
    What was permitted in the houses when believers gathered I believe was permitted everywhere ..Our interpretation MIGHT be mixed up somehow .why do Christians now have definitions as this is allowed in house fellowships but not in church building ..are you serious this is allowed in INFORMAL meeting but not during the service.Think about this if someone comes to a house for lunch the wife can teach ,prophesy and preach….. and this is private and an informal meeting ..why do we continue with definitions .
    I am just pouring out my heart cos I see the bible is being interpreted based on our own realities.
    Thanks for reading

  32. Dorothy,

    That was an excellent rebuttal to Golda’s link. Did you post it on her site? I hope you saved it for the next time because we both know I’ll be getting us in another mess soon!

    When I saw the article behind the link, my head began to hurt. I certainly didn’t want to jump on that merry go round for a while and Dorothy was gracious enough to expose the errors and keep us walking on the narrow road.

    For those of you who call me a chauvinist, or think that I hate women, read Dorothy’s post. It was EXCELLENT and what I’ve come to expect from her. In fact, some of the best comments have come from Bria, Naomi, Ann as well as Dorothy. I not only read their posts but post them because they are doing EXACTLY what the Bible commands them to do. I’m very grateful to them for the service they provide to the Kingdom and I’m confident that they are raising up godly women in these trying times.

    This blog/ministry or whatever you want to call it, has taken on a life of its own. I get many email requests daily asking for interpretations of passages of Scripture and I like to answer them all. The only way that this is possible is because of the fine women who post here as they are “cleaning up the mess” and dealing with some of the more interesting comments we receive here. This allows me to do whatever it is that I do and I am very GRATEFUL for this. This is what a community of believers is supposed to be about and I pray for each of you daily.

    I know I don’t say this enough, but thank you so much for all you do to make this thing of ours work as well as it does!!!

    Love,

    Phil

  33. Dorothy,

    You have posted the head verses. How do you infer from them that a woman should not teach/preach the word of God(our real/eternal husband)? And if the earthly husband gives permission can she preach?

    You cannot and should not submit to your husband in everything. You may go to hell like Sapphira.

    Anyway Head does not mean authority. Do you think God,the Son holds an inferior position to God, the Father? Is Jesus Christ not equal to Father God?

    Look at the follwing link.The web site has many great articles.

    http://godswordtowomen.org/studies/resources/onlinebooks/GWTW%20book/lesson_37.htm

    http://godswordtowomen.org/studies/scripture.htm

    [[if you want to know what women can do]]

    Whatever God commands women to do, they must do.

    “All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world”

    Is the great commission given only to men? For what purpose the baptism in the spirit is given? To please men?

    Who died for you in the cross? Your husband or Jesus?

    Open your eyes and serve the Lord, not men.

    I will post more arguments,later.

    -Golda.

  34. Hi Phil,

    I’m glad to be of service. That’s what I do – support work so the men can do what they do best. I call it housekeeping. :))

    I can’t thank you enough for the work being done here. It is very vital work and anything I can do to free up your time, I’ll be glad to do. My prayer is that the women who hold to feminism will come to see the system in action and realize the scare tactics of relinquishing their freedom to a pulpit, are just that. Scare tactics.

    No, I didn’t post to Golda’s blog. I may go do that this evening, but I did save my post. After repeating myself three times, I decided that was a good course of action. 🙂

    The role of women is a hard teaching and with the damage feminism has done, it’s no wonder women are confused and seek answers that blend into the culture of the times.

    Anyway, I wanted to say I appreciate your work and the work of many others on this site. I thank God for those who have the fortitude to stand up and do what’s right in the eyes of God.

    I’ll continue to keep this ministry and those who participate here in my prayers.

    Dorothy

  35. Hi Golda,

    I’ve come from your position so there isn’t any argument you can present that I have scrutinized and scrutinized over and over again.

    Read 1Tim 3. Notice in verse 15 – after Paul has gone of the offices with men in those positions and a man of one wife with repute for good conduct, notice how Paul ends his point…in verse 15 – I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Paul very clearly established an authority structure. You can kick against it all you want, but it’s there.

    Nowhere in this chapter does Paul say women can hold those positions nor does he insinuate that women are inferior because they shouldn’t hold those offices.

    You act like if you don’t have a pulpit you can’t give testimony. That’s a lie. Our every action is testimony. You want to take the great commission and make it about a pulpit platform. Where do you get that from that text? You say that whatever God calls us to do we must do and I totally agree…yet you deny the scriptures that define our roles. It’s you who demeans the roles established for women by insinuating we are inferior. What part of women’s roles are you so at odds with? Is it just the pulpit, or is it something else?

    What you fail to realize is that we all serve roles that bring Glory to God and He set us in our place. If you don’t like it, then your argument is with God and not me.

    Now, when Paul spoke about obeying our husband in everything, he was speaking to Christians. If you husband is acting outside the laws of God, then you most certainly are not to participate in his actions.

    I pray that you will eventually come to see the most breathtaking design God established between men and women in His Church. I can promise you that when you come to understand it that you will realize how shallow and empty the feminist position really is, because once you see it, like I did, you will never turn back.

    Also – I noticed that you said head does not mean authority, but then you quoted Jesus stating that all authority had been given to Him. Where do you fit that with Eph 5:23 – where Christ is said to be the Head of the Church? If he is the Head of the Church, then he is most definitely in authority. And you may want to take a look at Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

    As a final note – how we treat the men in the Church is a direct reflection of how we value Christ. How the men in the Church treat women is a direct reflection of Christ’s love for the Church. So men in the Church who abuse women don’t refect their God entrusted position of love for the Church. Disobedient women hold Christ in low esteem. Both those groups are outside the will of God. That’s a pretty tough picture, but it is the picture.

    Golda, I know every concern you could voice. I’m here to tell ya, that once I relinquished my position, not one of those concerns has ever been an issue. Quite the opposite.

    Dorothy

  36. [[The role of women is a hard teaching and with the damage feminism has done, it’s no wonder women are confused and seek answers that blend into the culture of the times. ]]

    Only you and Phil are confused. People like you do a lot of damage to God’s kingdom and God’s little ones – women.

    [[Even in Paul’s day, slaves were still subject to their masters]]

    Yes, let us support slavery too.

    Phil: How am I confused?

  37. Dorothy

    [[Nowhere in this chapter does Paul say women can hold those positions ]]

    The blind do not see.
    Did you read the link I gave in that post?

    Phil: Yes, we are blind. So far you’ve done nothing to open our eyes Golda. Your link proved nothing.

    What about secular jobs? Can a man(head) work under a women(body)? Or do you apply the Bible only to the church and to the work people do in God’s kingdom?

    Phil: We’re talking about church leadership. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

    Phil

    You have no right to put down ministers like Joyce Meyer , just because they are women , that liberate and bring more souls to Jesus than you and Dorothy.

    Phil: I “put them down” as you say because they are heretics. Gender means nothing in regards to being a false teacher.

  38. Hi Golda,

    Do you go demeaning women just for the fun of it, or is calling them “little ones” a compliment in your book?

    Golda I means this in the best of light, but it’s YOUR attitude towards women that needs to change. It’s not Phil, or me, or any of the other women Phil mentioned on this site, who have a low regard for women. Women play a very vital and important role in Christianity. It just isn’t all the roles you want to lay claim to.

    Paul made a good analogy when he talked about the body. So I ask, can my eye claim to be an ear and make it so? Does that mean the eye is less important than an ear because the eye wants to be an ear? No. Women are no less important than men, we just have different roles.

    Also, slavery still exists today. There are many forms of it, and forgive me if I’m wrong, but it appears you equate being a women, under God defined roles, to slavery. You have a point. I’m a slave to righteousness. I have no problem with that role either.

    Dorothy

  39. You didn’t answer my question about men under women in secular jobs.

    [[Paul made a good analogy when he talked about the body. So I ask, can my eye claim to be an ear and make it so?]]

    It seems you do not understand scriptures well. Paul was talking about all the members of the body, both men and women. Whatever role(pastor/preacher/evangelist/..) anyone(men or women) is called to play in God’s kingdom, they must obey and others should not be jealous of them.

    Anyway, eyes and ears are part of the head, not part of the body.

    Phil: You’re creating a stawman Golda. You haven’t addressed anything Scriptural and resort to name calling “blind” and attempts at obfuscation. Clearly “prophetess” you don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

  40. [[Your link proved nothing.]]

    You didn’t read it.
    Are you aware of any mistranslations in the Bible?

    [[Phil: We’re talking about church leadership. You’re comparing apples to oranges.]]

    Men being the head of the women is applicable only for the church?? Where in the Bible it says so? Do you use/ follow the Bible only inside the church?

    [[Gender means nothing in regards to being a false teacher.]]

    Does that mean you have no problem with women preachers/pastors if they are true teachers?

    What false teaching do you find with JM ministry?
    Or is she false because she is a woman?

    https://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/joyce-meyer-in-her-own-words/

    That should sum it up nicely. The rest of your nonsense isn’t worth addressing “prophetess”

  41. I’m sorry, if I have given the wrong impression that I own that blog!

    [[You haven’t addressed anything Scriptural and resort to name calling “blind”]]

    Even Jesus said, blind leading the blind!

    Anyway, have a happy day!

    Phil: You haven’t provided anything of substance Golda on the blog you “own” or any other blog or link you’ve used to attempt to prove your points.

  42. Golda,

    You truly talk like one who is blind. You misapply scriptures to soothe your biased claims. You need to read scriptures in its proper context before attempting to interprete.

    You presented yourself as someone that can’t be helped. All the answers you need have been provided above, but you ignored them.

    You quoted Matt 28:18-19 to support your unbiblical position. My dear, why not read from vs. 16 down to the end. It is clear those Jesus gave the instructions to – the eleven. You may compare it with Mark 16:14-End. Oh! Maybe I’m not looking well. You will tell me Joyce Meyer, Paula or Juanita Bynum have been making disciples of all nation, I’m sure you meant they have been fleecing the sheeple.

    Like Dorothy said, you don’t need a pulpit to witness Christ. Our character and day to day living will reveal who we really are. You may need to consider 1Pet 3:1-6. There are several roles a woman can fit into. Titus 2:3-5 gives us an insight into that. There is order in creation; the man as the leader and the woman has the helper. You can’t twist this, else you will make a monster of yourself, your marriage, relationship, church…

    You need to understand that no woman with proper understanding of scriptures will claim that God called her to pulpit ministry. I once thought I was called to be a prophetess, now it’s a shame to even suggest anything like that. Was it easy for me to accept? No! And that was because I needed to renew my mind on a lot of things (have been fed wrongly by our WOF heretics).

    I can’t deny what is written in black and white. As I began studying, God opened my heart and now I can boldly say that I heard what I wanted to hear when I claimed I heard God. God never said what I claimed He said then… He just couldn’t have.

    BTW Phil, I feel really honoured to know that I have contributed to this blog biblically. I can say that I have learnt to define my role and I know where I belong. My job just like Dorothy’s is to make things easier for you guys by supporting and not competing. 😀 I’m sure my pastor will really be proud of me and my father of course. Thanks for providing the platform.

    Phil: Well said Naomi. Your pastor and father have done really well in raising up a godly example of a woman teaching others. Bravo!!!!

  43. Phil!!!!!!

    You said:

    This blog/ministry or whatever you want to call it, has taken on a life of its own. I get many email requests daily asking for interpretations of passages of Scripture and I like to answer them all. The only way that this is possible is because of the fine women who post here as they are “cleaning up the mess” and dealing with some of the more interesting comments we receive here.

    Philo dude! What about us guys? 😦 What about us? Oh no; I’ll never post here again (right after this one, of course). Not even one tweeny-little, bitty piece of appreciation for a dude!

    Hnmph 😉

    <strongWhere’s my car dude? Hahahhahhahaha!!

  44. [[You need to read scriptures in its proper context before attempting to interprete.]]

    Exactly.Also you need to see what the scripture in the original lg tells.

    [[It is clear those Jesus gave the instructions to – the eleven. You may compare it with Mark 16:14-End. Oh! Maybe I’m not looking well.]]

    What a discovery indeed!

    That means no other men can do that work other than those eleven?
    Jesus preached a lot of things only to his disciples. Eg. how to pray. Does that mean it is not applicable to women?

    [[I once thought I was called to be a prophetess,]]

    If you are called, then you need to OBEY God.
    God asked Mary(a woman) to give the message of resurrection to the eleven.

    We should not not cling to one verse and forget the whole picture. Satan said “it is written”. Jesus countered it with “it is also written”. Anything that glorifies God and God’s kingdom is good. Women doing ministry(public/private) is good. People like you,imo, glorify men like your pastor or father.

    God loves women as much as he loves men ,and let us obey and glorify God and God alone.

  45. [[You will tell me Joyce Meyer, Paula or Juanita Bynum have been making disciples of all nation, I’m sure you meant they have been fleecing the sheeple.]]

    JM ministry is really a blessing to many.
    I do not know about the other two.

  46. [[There is order in creation; the man as the leader and the woman has the helper]]

    Suitable partner is the correct word.
    All good samaritans need to help those who are hurt.

    And God is our leader!

    Phil: What in the world are you talking about now Golda?

  47. Golda,
    You can’t change these narrow minded peoples mind. Phill is a calvonist. Which means he believes God already has decided who will be saved and used. You know the false doctrine called “Predestionation”. When you aren’t Spirit filled you can’t understand all that God has for you and other in the body of Christ. Just because you and I believe women can be used in ministry doesn’t make us feminist either. I hold a possition in my church as the ladies minister. And it was a direct calling of God. No matter what Phill or his co-hort Dorthy say. They are the type that belive their doctrine is the only strong doctrine there is. I’m sure they have a very small circle of friends. All I know is that we are in the last days, and God will use those who are willing to spread His word. And you are right, the churches of today have more women in them then men. God will use anyone who is a willing vessal. God bless you Golda.

  48. Well Phill, I have to thank-you for one thing. I listened to the recording of Joyce Meyer, and I am shocked. Though I have never really cared for her or Paula White, but now I really don’t want to hear anything that she has to say. That has to be the most un biblical thing I have ever heard in my life. Except of coarse the prosperity preaching form some. Even though it kind of ills me I must say you are right about Joyce Meyer.

    Phil: You see, this site is useful. Please stick around and we can learn from each other!

  49. It is God that gives illumination. Let’s continue to pray and stand on the truth, hopefully God will open the eyes of the likes of Golda as He is doing to Stephanie. Cheers!

  50. Sorry Naomi I still don’t see anything wrong with women in ministry. It’s just a shame that these two ladies have gotten so far out there. As I said before I am over the women’s ministry at my church. And I really don’t think that is a possition for a man. Do you?

  51. Hi Stephanie,

    What’s your definition of women’s ministry? That can mean different things to different groups.

    Ya see, Golda criticized me for putting my husband between me and God. Yet, you claim to be “over” the women’s ministry. I assume that means a position of authority. Am I right?

    So following Golda’s unBiblical pattern, why should anyone consider anyone “over” them?

    Let me repeat Golda’s position, but I’m going to change a few words…

    Who died for you in the cross? Your head of the women’s ministry or Jesus?

    Open your eyes and serve the Lord, not women.

    Dorothy

  52. [[Ya see, Golda criticized me for putting my husband between me and God]]

    Not just your husband, remember women must submit to all men in all places not just in the church, because man is the head of the woman.

    Btw, did you find , if Jesus was equal to God, the Father or less than equal beacuse the Bible says -God is the head of Christ?

    Learn the lesson- head-body analogy in that verse does not refer to authority .

  53. Hi Naomi,

    Poor you..you missed the boat..they have such a low opinion of you and your work, don’t they? It’s pretty amazing to me at the assumptions they work under in their patform. Have they ever asked you what you do, or I do? Go figure….

    I don’t know about you, but I have so much work for the Kingdom on my plate that it takes me 40-60 hours a week just to make headway. On top of that, I work and right now is the “season”, so I’m also working 60-70 hours a week. LOL

    Ya know, I really thought they had an antinomian view of the authority structure within the Church…but now I realize their structure is purely of their own making. I guess they don’t realize that the Church is a copy of heavenly Truths…and the authority we submit to is by divine design and that design is perfect.

    Jesus most definitely is our ultimate authority but He doesn’t ask us to work outside God’s design. We are part and parcel of that design. Whatever is done “outside” of that design is NOT from Him.

    Dorothy

  54. Golda,

    I’m having difficulty with your posts Golda. They don’t make any sense. I’m also having a difficult time determining what it is you are trying to accomplish here. Is your purpose here to contribute to this discussion or to promote a blog that either you or a friend of yours owns?

    Are you the owner of http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com? The blog claims Miriam Frankin is the author/prophetess/owner of that blog. Is this you Golda?

    I’ve allowed you to post links that I certainly don’t agree with out of courtesy Golda. It gave my readers a chance to determine where exactly you are coming from. Now that this has been established, please refrain from posting links unless they are your own work and actually has something to do with the topic being discussed.

    What did the last link you provided have to do with Stephanie being the leader of her churches women’s ministry?

  55. About time Phil!

    Golda,

    I’m glad I never became anything of such. Infact, I’m most grateful that God delivered me from things like this ‘cos I would have been very bad. Eachtime I look back, I’m filled with gratitude to God. If not for Him, maybe I would be gallivanting around like one of our ‘profitesses’ claiming to see visions that are clearly unscriptural.

    Do you call this a scriptural vision?

    Then suddenly without any conscious effort on my part, separate to my other thoughts and as clear as anything in my mind’s eye (eg the area where you dream something), I saw what seemed to be like a vivid movie reel playing in my head, yet I was fully awake. I saw a French resistance fighter like the ones from World War two. He had a beret and a string of onions around his neck and a stripey red teeshirt and the dark hair and maustache. It was very cartoon like. I heard him say as clear as anything: ‘My name is Hope.’ I knew this was God speaking to me, no doubts at all.

    You need to study your bible clearly if you think so. Whatever she claimed she saw, whether he or it is certainly not God.

    Dorothy,

    You are right, they claim you judge and condemn, while they turn around to do the same to you. Hypocrites!

    I do more ministry than I work. Actually, the work I’m doing affords me a lot of time to do ministry work and I chose that path simply because of my commitment to Christ. I’m extremely grateful that I have a job that doesn’t come between my God and me.

    More grace even as we stay true to HIM.

    Naomi.

  56. I had an issue with a former church. Women were not allowed to preach, and teach, but I wondered if I wanted to learn how to cook should a woman instruct me or would this be some how sinful?

    I was told that a man would have to led the cooking ministry (dont ask) over the woman, even though he may not know a think about the kitchen.

    I always thought this was a little bit over the top for me.

    One of the reasons why Iam saved now is because of women showing me about the Bible and the love of Christ,

    Does that mean they should preach from the pulpit or teach a Bible study. No

    I think men are sometimes at fault because they feel threaten by women who know, and question The Bible and scriptures.
    And some women feel that if a man is holding them back from a leadership role that they are some how being held back from thier personal blessing.

    Women can lead men and women to Christ as well as any man. But God has set forth the structure of men and women in the church.

    Of course I could be wrong, and I welcome advice.

  57. Well Dorthy, I guess you got a bitter taste in your mouth somewhere along the line. I guess you don’t have a women’s ministry in your church. I’m sorry. As the leader of the women’s ministry of my church, women’s Bible studies, schedul women’s confrences, pray for my sister’s in Christ, and am there for counsel if they need it. We do studies by Beth Moore who is an amazing woman of God.
    I believe you have used this bolg to lash out your own hateful thoughts. I would love to know what denomontion you are.

  58. Hi Everyone,

    I did want to add something to the discussion on women’s roles. When we are instructed to be silent in Church because it’s a shame to speak and if we want to learn something to ask our husbands at home, many miss some vital elements of that arrangement.

    When this arrangement is followed, our husbands feel useful , but the most important part of this is that the husband and wife can search scripture together and discuss it. Over time, this allows for both of them to remain in agreement, to grow together and to be equiped with scriptural knowledge when faced with adversity. Over the course of a marriage, one or the other will fall behind or into dangerous waters because life is tough. Finances can take a downturn, job loss can intervene, a major illness of a family member, those all can add serious burdens to the household. Your spouse should always be equiped Biblically to carry the load and serve to restore the other and maintain the family on good spiritual footing.

    This arrangement was never intended to be a “lording it over” arrangement. It was always meant with the good of the family at it’s heart. A Godly women will realize that public submissiveness does not mean she is “inferior”. It’s a very high calling to focus on the household and what brings strength to the family unit.

    A women who looks outside her home for spiritual guidance, can sometimes, even in a Church setting, send the message that her husband is not a good provider in that area. That’s a very destructive thing to happen within a relationship. If you want to introduce strife into your household, make your husband feel like a failure as a provider, it financial or spiritual or bring into question his ability to lead his family.

    Miriam made a serious mistake when she questioned her brother’s choice of a wife and gossiped. In her actions, it equated to undermining Moses’ judgment in family matters and could have introduced divisions within the body he was given to lead. God was not pleased.

    Dorothy

  59. To Phil,

    I have already told you that I do not own that blog.

    [[What did the last link you provided have to do with Stephanie being the leader of her churches women’s ministry?]]

    That was for Naomi. Do you really read what anybody posts?

    [[Now that this has been established, please refrain from posting links unless they are your own work and actually has something to do with the topic being discussed.]]

    Interesting.

    To Dorothy,

    [[I guess they don’t realize that the Church is a copy of heavenly Truths]]

    In heaven there is no male and female. The only authority is God. That is the heavenly truth.

    [[Whatever is done “outside” of that design is NOT from Him. ]]

    In your design, eyes and ears are part of the head or body?

  60. Wow! Dorothy, that is a very sound one. I don’t feel threathened one bit following God’s instructions on the role of women. It is not a matter of inferiority or superiority. God has given both male and female a role to fit into. What we need to do is to identify this role and function in it.

    There is nothing wrong if you head the women’s ministry in your church. And no one says you can’t do bible study among yourselves. What you cannot become is an elder – you cannot be part of the constituted authority in that church.

    I think this thread is becoming unnecessarily long. The issue has been overflogged and there is no point streching it further.

    Naomi

  61. Hi Golda,

    You enjoy being argumentative don’t you? That’s part of that “No one can tell me what to do” theology that feminist theology brings to the table. It’s pure humanism that places the focus on “self”.

    Feminist theology contributes to the breakdown of the family, declining moral values, and pure and simple it is antinomian in it’s nature. It doesn’t submit to anyone or anything, including the Word of God. It’s entire motivating factor is “self”.

    Because feminist theology does not understand “self” scrifice, it certainly can’t understand the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross or the submission to the Father that sacrifice entailed. Under your definition of that structure, Christ didn’t have to do that. He didn’t have to live a perfect life in obedience to God’s law and the course God set for His life.

    Feminist theology can’t understand a “love” so pure and strong that your only thoughts are for the welfare of everyone else. It takes a love so strong that “you” lay down your life for the sake of others. Feminist theology wants to be the “top” dog. It wants to assert it’s own authority. It wants the pulpits and to be acknowledged in the marketplace. It is a lie of the greatest magnitude.

    At this point, I see no use in further discussion with you on the topic because you aren’t interested in my answers. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    Dorothy

  62. Hi Golda,

    I’ve given you more then enough time to make a coherent statement yet you’ve failed to do so.

    Ready?

    In order for me to even listen to your babblings, you must convince me with Scripture which you CLEARLY haven’t done. That kinda garbage might work on Miriam’s blasphemous blog but it doesn’t fly here.

    I’ll address all the Scripture that you’ve provided………………DONE.

    Show me in 1Timothy Chapter 3 where it EVER states that women are even CONSIDERED as OVERSEERS, BISHOPS or DEACONS? Here, I’ll help you out. IT DOESN’T.

    How many female priests are mentioned in the Old Testament? I’ll help ya out here…………………………..NONE.

    Women aren’t second class citizens Golda. They have clearly defined roles within the Body. Not lesser roles but DIFFERENT roles and all are designed to work together for the edification of the Body. Mixing up God’s order doesn’t please God Golda.

    Your argument isn’t with Dorothy, Naomi or even me. Your arguing with clearly defined Scripture Golda. It appears that you prefer to listen to the likes of Miriam and that other heretic you traipsed out here trying to defend something that has no defense. I suggest you turn off the internet and open up your Bible Golda.

  63. Show me in 1Timothy Chapter 3 where it EVER states that women are even CONSIDERED as OVERSEERS, BISHOPS or DEACONS?


    Faulty interpretations of many Bible texts concerning women foster the low status, oppression, and abuse of women the world around, which is one of the greatest social evils.

    Although the word “man” is used in 3:1, 5 for someone seeking the office of Bishop, the Greek word used is tis, a neuter word meaning male or female. Had Paul wanted to communicate that this office was to be limited to the male gender, he would have used the word andron which specifies male only. In the KJ on Titus 1:6, the word is also tis.

    Women served as elders and deacons in the early church just as the men; yet with the onset of apostasy, their ministry declined.The letter of II. John is addressed to “the elect lady.” The term “elect” was used to designate the overseer (bishop/elder) of a church. Most scholars agree that in the early church, there were no differences between episkopos (bishop) and presbuteros (presbyter or elder). Both words describe the same function. After completing his list of qualifications for bishop and deacons in 3:1-10, he continued by including women when he said, gunaikas hosautos or “women likewise.” Hosautos links the entire list of qualifications with one another. It links the deacons with the bishops in v. 8 and then links them to women in v. 11.

    [[How many female priests are mentioned in the Old Testament?]]

    In OT, priesthood belongs to only one tribe. Not all men are eligible.

    In NT, we are all priests.
    Rev 1:6
    and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father– to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

  64. Golda,

    Dorothy is right. You do like to argue. I would have thought after the shellacking you received 8 days ago, you might not be back. The beauty of the internet is that you can keep coming back without anyone knowing who you truly are. I’d be embarrassed if I were you right now.

    You said:

    ” Although the word “man” is used in 3:1, 5 for someone seeking the office of Bishop, the Greek word used is tis, a neuter word meaning male or female. Had Paul wanted to communicate that this office was to be limited to the male gender, he would have used the word andron which specifies male only. In the KJ on Titus 1:6, the word is also tis.

    The Greek word for man ei’ tis, which is a pronoun. It is NOT a neutral word. The text would render as such “If any desire”. Now, pay attention to verse 2.

    (2)Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

    Notice the requirements for church leadership Golda. It says “husband”. Since you have such a desire to correct me with the original language, let’s see what the Greek word for “husband” is.

    “Aner” is the Greek word for husband. It means “male” and it is a masculine word. This word is used 212 times in the NT and always means male. This word can also be used generically for a group of either men or women but not in this case because Paul is speaking about individual overseers.

    I can’t wait to see how you attempt to squirm your way out of this Golda!

    You said:

    Women served as elders and deacons in the early church just as the men; yet with the onset of apostasy, their ministry declined. The letter of II. John is addressed to “the elect lady.” The term “elect” was used to designate the overseer (bishop/elder) of a church. Most scholars agree that in the early church, there were no differences between episkopos (bishop) and presbuteros (presbyter or elder). Both words describe the same function. After completing his list of qualifications for bishop and deacons in 3:1-10, he continued by including women when he said, gunaikas hosautos or “women likewise.” Hosautos links the entire list of qualifications with one another. It links the deacons with the bishops in v. 8 and then links them to women in v. 11.

    More flawed arguments Golda. At least you’re consistant.

    Please show me where women served as elder or deacon in the NT church Golda?

    2John was addressed to an “elect lady”. That doesn’t make her fit into your flawed views that she was a leader in the church. He meant that she was “one of the elect” and addressed her as such. The Greek word for elect is “eklektos” and that means set apart. This word is an adjective. In other words, John believed that she was a sincere believer chosen by God unto SALVATION. You could even be the elect but based on your comments I’d be hesitant to address you as such.

    Verse 11 is NOT a requirement for a woman to be in church leadership. You are correct when you say they do connect and this verse is an additional requirement for the MEN. The male leaders MUST have wives that FIT the requirements named in verse 11. Please stop trying to make the text say something that it doesn’t.

    You still haven’t answered whether or not there were women priests in the OT. Why not?

    Yes Golda, we all are considered “priests” but not all are fit for church leadership.

    Here’s some advice for you Golda. Go and study some more and present a coherent argument, if you can. In fact, there are plenty of heretical sites that would agree with you and would think you are clever with your partial knowledge of the bible and miniscule knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew language. Unfortunately, this site isn’t one of them.

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