Ted Haggard and St. James Church. Is He Qualified To Pastor?

Well, it’s official. Ted Haggard announced earlier today he will be planting a new church in Colorado Springs, named St. James Church. You can read the official announcement below;

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/06/02/rel.haggard.announcement/index.html

There are most likely quite a few of you reading this who feel Haggard isn’t qualified and just wish he would go away. Please feel free to share your biblical reasons as to why you feel the way you do.

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54 thoughts on “Ted Haggard and St. James Church. Is He Qualified To Pastor?”

  1. I am wonder what the definition of a church is? I thought it was the body of Christ or an assembly of believers. I don’t have a problem with Ted having meetings and trying to reach the lost, which is what this statement would suggest.

    “All are welcome. Whether you’re a Democrat, a Republican, gay, straight, bi-[sexual], tall, short, addict, recovering addict. … I believe Jesus’ arms are open to all,” he said.

    This gathering would not be a church in my thinking but an evangelistic outreach. Am I wrong here?

    1. Hi Boyd,

      That’s exactly what it is, an evangelistic outreach. In time it will most likely lead to a brick and mortar building.

      I’m reminded of this Scripture

      Act 5:38-39
      So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,

      I say we wait and see…..

      Phil

  2. Phil there’s no way I would listen to, support or sit under Ted…The word of God has a standard and there are some leaders who just don’t measure up and I beleive Ted is one of them.

    Phil, When Judas betrayed Jesus, he wasn’t put back in office! Leaders today think we are supposed to respect them just because they are leaders…You can not learn from some one you don’t respect… Respect is earned.

    1. Hey Ann!!

      Nice to see you here! How have you been?

      You make a good point regarding Judas. He did betray Jesus and you are absolutely correct he was not restored.

      How does Peter fit into this scenario? He denied Christ 3 times didn’t he? I would consider that a betrayal wouldn’t you? Remember what Jesus said to him?

      John 21:15-17

      When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

      If Ted Haggard truly loves Jesus, and I believe he does, then Jesus has forgiven him and is asking him to feed His sheep which is what we should all be praying for to happen. I believe it will.

      Phil

    2. Problem with that one Ann….. Your going to have a big problem understanding Grace and forgiveness if you go around holding the Word of God as the standard beleivers are expected to live up to. Have you personally been able to adhere to the “standard” that the bible sets? If so, you are a perfect person and dont need Jesus. Legalism will always judge and be critical of anothers short comings and failures, but our “standard” of righteousness has been given by Christ by faith to those who believe. Dont count him out yet….God may just be doing something amazing that will rock the religious boat.

  3. It is very simple for me but opinion only.

    This man should be restored as a brother in Christ if he is truly repentent.

    However, to be trusted to lead in my humble opinion is ludicrous!! God has exposed this man, and now we are tested in the pew who you will follow!!

    AS Shepherd so go the sheep….To restore into leadership of a man that only had a reality check AFTER he was caught doing drugs and involved in homosexuality is very precarious..isn’t it??

    How many more reality checks doesn’t he have on his moral compass?? A leader must be beyond reproach and be very much in tune with his conscience..He appeared on many shows describing as finding himself for lack of better words.

    Christ nor christians need a leader in the stage of finding themselves in these basic moral 101 lessons of life.

    It is clear, God has not called him back, but very clear the people of God are now under the TEST themselves…For judgement begins at the house of God and it starts usually at the top..So, what you saw that befell Haggard is also a judgement moving to the pew..

    We are responsible who we allow to lead us…The false shepherds all return just as Tilton and Baker have, but a true man of God is humbled under the chastisement of the Lord and usually lacks desire to lead as Moses did….The false one’s are the opposite aren’t they…

    To accept this man to lead again, is simply a statement that they don’t believe he really was a wolf and they believe he has a chance with God in the pulpit..A prophet is never restored once he has spoken falsely…How much more a pastor who has lived a lie in hiding for two decades should be trusted or allowed by the Hand of God to lead!!!

    This test is on the pew now..I don’t believe anyone will be punished by the hand of God who does not allow this man to lead your moral lives..but I wonder what punishment will come to those who continue to allow wolves to lead the flock..

    As the bible warns,,Giving Godspeed to false doctrine will receive the same reward as the one who teaches it..How much more one who lives a lie in the pulpit to be trusted and empowered once again is more antibiblical than biblical as I see it.

    Lastly, God will send the strong delusion … Haggard in my opinion is counted among the false teachers God has sent representing this delusion…He has alot more to prove…and I would tell people to run from him not to him..and lastly a second chance in the pulpit is not an option for this false light at all!!

    Tim Smith

    1. Hi Tim,

      Thanks for the comments and its nice to see you again!

      Do you remember a situation involving Paul and Peter. I believe its in Galatians 2. Do you remember what that had to do with? Hypocrisy right? Would you consider hypocrisy moral failure? I would.

      Was Peter removed as an Apostle? Was there a testing period?

      When Peter betrayed Christ, how long before he was restored by Christ? Was he truly repentant?

      I do appreciate your opinion Tim and I’m looking forward to hearing your response.

      Phil

    2. Hi Phil!!

      Thanks again for your to the point topics.

      Bear with me while I try to respond to your points..It may take me a couple of messages to be complete.

      The first point about Paul and Peter..I believe it was regarding circumsicion and also a double standard Peter was using as well.

      The Ans: The reply I have to this when equating it to a guy like Haggard is first they are two totally different issues entirely and do not apply in the same manner..Just as the point Ann had about using Judas as her example.

      Peter was learning a brand new doctrine number one, and two it was not based upon morality issues or sin factors of the flesh..for that is a black and white issue…that we teach our 3 year olds..

      Peter was being confronted for his double standards or hypocricy’s regarding the issue of circumcision and still using the law versus grace…

      Haggard was in moral practice..and I mean Practice, practice practice of continual eggregious sins of the flesh and drugs, which could relate to the occult..needless it is obvious drugs defiling the soul, body and spirit…

      Those who practice sin are not of God…versus dealing and working out our salvation of the human flaws we all have in grained..

      The two do not compare..therefore cannot be dealt with the same brush of righteous judgement…

      Judas sinned a sin based on his own agendas and willful betrayal..

      Peter did not willfully betray Christ!! It was his human fear..Never did he contemplate or as they say in LAW premeditate he would betray where as Judas did..

      The premeditation just as Haggard had woven with great arrogance and deceit are not the same dealing with Peter and his hypocricy dealing with a new law of Grace not even written yet to be included with the bible…

      The only comparison Phil is that we are all sinners, and God forgives all sin and we are commanded to do the same…Forgiveness to restore brotherhood is entirely different than restoring one to a Key office held only for the called and proven!!! Proven Haggard is not..!!!

      Peter is PROVEN indeed,,Judas is NOT!!! That is the key difference in dividing the word of Truth that applies without discrimination, but with appropriate application regarding the motive compared with the deed!!

      I hope that explains my view conceptually at least..and with that standard used one can see how Christ and the word of Truth handles sin specifically versus a broad brush exonerating the wicked and punishing the righteous for very different reasons…

      Tim

  4. With due respect I don’t think willingly engaging in homosexual act for 3 yrs or so can be compared with Peter’s betrayal or hypocrisy in the heat of the moment.

  5. Hi Tim,

    Thanks again for your to the point topics.
    Bear with me while I try to respond to your points..It may take me a couple of messages to be complete.

    You are welcome. Take all the time and space you need. This is an important issue, don’t you agree?

    The first point about Paul and Peter..I believe it was regarding circumsicion and also a double standard Peter was using as well.
    The Ans: The reply I have to this when equating it to a guy like Haggard is first they are two totally different issues entirely and do not apply in the same manner..Just as the point Ann had about using Judas as her example.

    The issue wasn’t over circumcision but about behavior. Peter acted one way with the Gentiles and basically ignored them, even refusing to eat with them, when disciples of James came to Antioch. This became confusing and made it impossible for the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians to worship together as one body of believers.

    Peter was learning a brand new doctrine number one, and two it was not based upon morality issues or sin factors of the flesh..for that is a black and white issue…that we teach our 3 year olds..

    Peter was being confronted for his double standards or hypocricy’s regarding the issue of circumcision and still using the law versus grace…

    No, it was sin. Peter was afraid of how the disciples of James would treat him if they saw him treat the Gentile Christians like brothers. Back in those days Jews and Gentiles didn’t do spiritual things together. It was fear and fear is sin (1Peter 5:7, John 14:27, Romans 8:31).

    Haggard was in moral practice..and I mean Practice, practice practice of continual eggregious sins of the flesh and drugs, which could relate to the occult..needless it is obvious drugs defiling the soul, body and spirit…

    These sins were continual? The drug use was very minimal albeit very wrong and something he’s not only admitted to but repented of.

    Those who practice sin are not of God…versus dealing and working out our salvation of the human flaws we all have in grained..
    The two do not compare..therefore cannot be dealt with the same brush of righteous judgement…

    How does Haggard “practice sin now”? I would say the sins of Peter and Judas can be painted with the same brush and I will explain that next.

    Judas sinned a sin based on his own agendas and willful betrayal..

    I would say Peter had an agenda when he betrayed Christ. He was afraid he would be killed. I would say that is a willful agenda if there ever was one. He was also afraid of the disciples of James which led to his hypocrisy. He didn’t truly repent of his fear after the first time did he? Yet, even though he committed the same sin once again, he still remained an apostle.

    Peter did not willfully betray Christ!! It was his human fear..Never did he contemplate or as they say in LAW premeditate he would betray where as Judas did..

    Peter did willfully betray Christ but you are correct unlike Judas his was not premeditated. His fell under Galatians 6:1 which is why he was restored and allowed to remain an apostle.

    Ted Haggard committed a sin and then compounded that sin by continuing to sin. He’s repented of that sin and has been free of those particular sins, at least to the best of my knowledge he has. He was removed from his position and rightly so but does that mean he should NEVER be allowed to Pastor again? I’d like to see a biblical reason why that is so. So far no one has given one, at least not yet.

    The premeditation just as Haggard had woven with great arrogance and deceit are not the same dealing with Peter and his hypocricy dealing with a new law of Grace not even written yet to be included with the bible…
    The only comparison Phil is that we are all sinners, and God forgives all sin and we are commanded to do the same…Forgiveness to restore brotherhood is entirely different than restoring one to a Key office held only for the called and proven!!! Proven Haggard is not..!!!

    Proven by whom exactly? You? Tim, are you responsible for hiring Ted? Do you know who his accountability partners are? He does have them BTW and I’m fairly certain all of these matters and issues have been discussed in GREAT detail prior to him ever making the decision to return to Pastoral ministry.

    Peter is PROVEN indeed,,Judas is NOT!!! That is the key difference in dividing the word of Truth that applies without discrimination, but with appropriate application regarding the motive compared with the deed!!

    I hope that explains my view conceptually at least..and with that standard used one can see how Christ and the word of Truth handles sin specifically versus a broad brush exonerating the wicked and punishing the righteous for very different reasons…

    I understand where your confusion regarding Peter was and now that that’s been cleared up I hope we can move forward and get to the heart of the matter. How is Ted Haggard biblically disqualified from the office of Elder.

    Thanks Tim,

    Phil

  6. Jesus told the Gadarene not to follow him but rather to “Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you”(Luke8:39). If this is what Ted is doing then praise God!

    The problem here is the mention of the term church and the use of it as a revenue handling vehicle which brings into play all the requirements of eldership. Donations come alot freer if people can deduct them from their taxes. Unfortunatly the world is full of Gadarenes who are selling their story rather than just telling it, and the church is the only market place to do it.

    If Ted is inviting people to his home to hear the great things God has done for him, then he is doing exactly what Jesus would want. Just don’t call it a church.

  7. Hi Phil:

    Phil you said the paragraph below and my reply are the paragraphs following:

    Phil states:

    The issue wasn’t over circumcision but about behavior. Peter acted one way with the Gentiles and basically ignored them, even refusing to eat with them, when disciples of James came to Antioch. This became confusing and made it impossible for the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians to worship together as one body of believers.

    MY Reply:

    Ok, I do realize there was more than one issue, and the point remains the same regardless of which sin..In this case behavior. Yes, this was a sin however it wasn’t a sin that is likened unto Haggard or a sin likened unto Judas. It does matter which sins come from leadership..for all men are flawed..

    Haggard PRACTICED SIN…This means he was never a brother in the Lord..In I John it states those who practice sin do not know Him for those who are born of the seed of God cannot sin..(paraphrased).

    Peter and the other’s were not Practicing sin in the sense of I John. I believe it was a matter of social pressure!! Again which is different in motive..To me this whole thing of qualification is based on the type of sin a leader commits determines if he is restored as a leader not a brother..Any sin is of restoration unto a brother but not a leader.

    In Haggard’s case, it is night and day and a matter of common sense. Another point this man should not be promoted is due to TRUST issues..Forgiveness does not mean restoration of trust either..Without Trust how can one be restored to leadership?? And why would anyone lead any brother or sister in the Lord to Trust a guy like Haggard with such a ruthless and reckless track record!!??

    Is this not biblical from an implicit point of view??

    Again not so much explicit as a black and white scripture, however scripture is filled with the command to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves..Scripture warns about the treacherous teacher does it not?? And scripture does not speak of restoring any leader, but rather restoration only as a member of the body of Christ!!

    Scripture tells us great delusion is coming!!! And God is sending that delusion of which Haggard is greatly a part of..He was given 20 years to deceive and mislead!! To me this is giving a guy enough rope to hang himself..He has hung himself and now the judgement is on the people to see if there is any spiritual maturity in the body to be able to distinguish between good and evil..

    To me Phil this is the main point above all points..If you are seeking an exact scripture that shows why Haggard cannot be restored to Pastor I don’t’ believe there is one..But I will say there is a even greater message all through the bible warning all about these wolves without any notion of restoration!!! For the sake of the sheep..

    This wolf has fed off the sheep Phil not the other way around..Christ said to PETER ..Feed my sheep!! Did he not?? It is for protection of the sheep that is a greater concern than wondering if we the sheep should be fed a guilt trip to restore a wolf who never was a shepherd from the beginning!!!

    This is of great biblical scripture is it not?? Protect the flock..and lastly Phil if you are to convince those to follow this unproven vessel, are you sure you would feel right should the sheep follow him again, only to have him repeat the matter or worse, like Baker is doing..Now the sheep will be judged by returning to a Shepherd or wolf in shepherds clothes only to find they have betrayed Christ by ignoring the obvious a man of 20 years of unrepented practiced sin or living in sin, to end up serving the wolf once again.

    Boyd made a great point of the church versus sharing a home for testimony..I don’t’ think that is where Haggard is going..The last scripture of warning states, they will make merchandise of you…This greatly apply’s does it not as to who should be restored to leadership…

    If a prophet is never to be restored than why should a pastor be restored..For he is the mouth piece of God expounding upon the word which there is no greater prophecy..He has used that prophecy even denouncing homosexuals in the pulpit while he was one…This takes great premeditation…and to compare his sin with those of the apostles to make the point of restoration simply does not pass the common sense test regardless how quiet the scripture may be on the topic in terms of explicit instruction..However the implicit instruction in the word of God is very clear in my humble opinion.

    My points remain the same, and I hope I have shown how scripture does state to stay away from these types of which Haggard qualifies for such judgement..and grave concern..

    Tim

    1. Hi Tim,

      Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

      Ok, I do realize there was more than one issue, and the point remains the same regardless of which sin..In this case behavior. Yes, this was a sin however it wasn’t a sin that is likened unto Haggard or a sin likened unto Judas. It does matter which sins come from leadership..for all men are flawed..
      Haggard PRACTICED SIN…This means he was never a brother in the Lord..In I John it states those who practice sin do not know Him for those who are born of the seed of God cannot sin..(paraphrased)?.

      Cannot sin? Do you sin Tim? If so does that mean you aren’t a brother in the Lord? If you have the time please read 1 Corinthians 5. That tells us how we are to deal with those who practice sin as a lifestyle. It doesn’t say the man wasn’t a “brother” because of his sin but it does say how we are to deal with a “brother” who refuses to repent. Ted has repented and the second epistle to the believers at Corinth tells us how we are to treat those who have repented.

      Peter and the other’s were not Practicing sin in the sense of I John. I believe it was a matter of social pressure!! Again which is different in motive..To me this whole thing of qualification is based on the type of sin a leader commits determines if he is restored as a leader not a brother..Any sin is of restoration unto a brother but not a leader.

      Social pressure? That sounds more like Flip Wilson theology then biblical theology. Sin is sin no matter what the motivation is. What type of sin can a leader commit and still remain in leadership? King David if you remember committed a biggie yet he remained in leadership albeit he did pay a severe price for his sins and the remainder of his days weren’t all that pleasant but God forgave him and he did bring our Lord and Savior through that union, did he not?

      In Haggard’s case, it is night and day and a matter of common sense. Another point this man should not be promoted is due to TRUST issues..Forgiveness does not mean restoration of trust either..Without Trust how can one be restored to leadership?? And why would anyone lead any brother or sister in the Lord to Trust a guy like Haggard with such a ruthless and reckless track record!!??

      You mention trust. That’s a fair statement my brother. Who is it that should trust him? Me? You? Shouldn’t that call be made by the people that place him in leadership? I think so. Shouldn’t that call be made by those who actually attend his gatherings? Again, I think so.

      How was Ted “ruthless”? Did he or does he preach or teach out of personal gain. Does he or did he manipulate Scripture in order to do so?

      Is this not biblical from an implicit point of view??
      Again not so much explicit as a black and white scripture, however scripture is filled with the command to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves..Scripture warns about the treacherous teacher does it not?? And scripture does not speak of restoring any leader, but rather restoration only as a member of the body of Christ!!

      I hope you aren’t implying that Ted Haggard is a “treacherous teacher” because that would be wrong on many levels. He made some poor decisions and he repented of these. He has faced public shame and ridicule as have his INNOCENT family yet through it all he has held his head up high and has to the best of my knowledge followed Christ.

      Scripture tells us great delusion is coming!!! And God is sending that delusion of which Haggard is greatly a part of..He was given 20 years to deceive and mislead!! To me this is giving a guy enough rope to hang himself..He has hung himself and now the judgement is on the people to see if there is any spiritual maturity in the body to be able to distinguish between good and evil..

      Tim, there has been a “strong delusion” for nearly 2000 years so lets not go there ok? How did Haggard deceive and mislead for over 20 years? Hung himself? I would have to say more like hung out to dry by those who had ulterior motives that were less then godly.

      To me Phil this is the main point above all points..If you are seeking an exact scripture that shows why Haggard cannot be restored to Pastor I don’t’ believe there is one..But I will say there is a even greater message all through the bible warning all about these wolves without any notion of restoration!!! For the sake of the sheep..

      How is Ted Haggard a wolf Tim?

      This wolf has fed off the sheep Phil not the other way around..Christ said to PETER ..Feed my sheep!! Did he not?? It is for protection of the sheep that is a greater concern than wondering if we the sheep should be fed a guilt trip to restore a wolf who never was a shepherd from the beginning!!!

      How has Ted “fed off the sheep” exactly? Guilt trip? Who’s doing that? I’m certainly not.

      This is of great biblical scripture is it not?? Protect the flock..and lastly Phil if you are to convince those to follow this unproven vessel, are you sure you would feel right should the sheep follow him again, only to have him repeat the matter or worse, like Baker is doing..Now the sheep will be judged by returning to a Shepherd or wolf in shepherds clothes only to find they have betrayed Christ by ignoring the obvious a man of 20 years of unrepented practiced sin or living in sin, to end up serving the wolf once again.

      Shouldn’t the sheep be serving Christ and not the Pastor? I believe I am protecting the flock by discussing these issues here on this forum and I’m not pushing anything on anyone. 20 years of unrepented practiced sin? Where did you get that idea from? That couldn’t be further from the truth Tim.

      Boyd made a great point of the church versus sharing a home for testimony..I don’t’ think that is where Haggard is going..The last scripture of warning states, they will make merchandise of you…This greatly apply’s does it not as to who should be restored to leadership…

      Boyd always makes great points and backs them up with Scripture. Now Ted’s making merchandise of people? Really? How so? The truth is neither you nor I know what will happen so speculating is less then helpful, don’t you think?

      If a prophet is never to be restored than why should a pastor be restored..For he is the mouth piece of God expounding upon the word which there is no greater prophecy..He has used that prophecy even denouncing homosexuals in the pulpit while he was one…This takes great premeditation…and to compare his sin with those of the apostles to make the point of restoration simply does not pass the common sense test regardless how quiet the scripture may be on the topic in terms of explicit instruction..However the implicit instruction in the word of God is very clear in my humble opinion.

      There is a BIG difference between a false prophet and a fallen elder. Let’s not confuse the two ok? Ted isn’t a homosexual Tim. He may have homosexual tendencies but that doesn’t make him a homosexual. Ted preached the Word my brother and struggled with these issues, and yes, he fell. OK. He will live with that for the rest of his life and apparently he will have to be reminded of that for the rest of his life until he meets Jesus who will tell him his sins are forgiven and forgotten as far as the east is to the west.

  8. Hi Phil,

    You have made many points in your message and I can only reply piece by piece.

    Here is another point you made below:

    Phil states:

    Proven by whom exactly? You? Tim, are you responsible for hiring Ted? Do you know who his accountability partners are? He does have them BTW and I’m fairly certain all of these matters and issues have been discussed in GREAT detail prior to him ever making the decision to return to Pastoral ministry.

    My Answer:

    Proven by scripture..and testing the spirits to see if they are of God or not..Another point. One cannot be restored if he was never called in the first place such as Haggard who confesses of these issues even in his teen years, obviously disqualifying him for leadership, but qualifying him moreso for very deep counseling and help.

    Secondly, Did I hire him??? I guess this shows moreso the differences of view from a overall perspective..The direct answer is Yes, I am responsible for testing him and judging him as well to determine if he is qualified as all sheep are commanded.

    Phil, we are to be sheep, but not BLIND SHEEP who followed this phony for 20 years!! Yes, we are very much responsible..

    It doesnt’ matter who his accountablity partners are..For obviously they have failed at their position as well..His accountablity parnters would not be encouraging him but rather counseling him to help him see he is still in great DENIAL!!

    Phil, hear what this man has said in his life statement!!! The man lived with this demon of sorts from youth without it ever being discussed or slightly mentioned to the elders he had homosexual feelings!! and his PARTNERS ignored this very serious statement that haggard made on the Oprah show..

    That should pretty much sum up his accountabilities Phil shouldn’t it??

    In closing Phil, you say you are certain all these matters are taken care of now?? How is it you are so certain?? a 14 thousand membership with a fleet of corporate sorts were his accountabilities then, and they treated him like a cash cow or rock star never to let anyone see any crack muchless worthless vessel of the Lord degrading the word and Christ’s name.

    No, I cannot go down that road of trust as you have,,for I fear should I promote him or endorse him as you are I would carry the burden of accountablity of this man..I will not cosign for him as you are, for protection of the flock and protection of myself receiving judgement of God for leading a released flock back to an evil Wolf..

    I absolutely in good conscience cannot as a sheep muchless a responsible shepherd give reason as one does in a man made courts to find a reasonable doubt to allow this phony to continue..I sense God’s courts do not incorporate reasonable doubt,,for all is seen in His courts..

    Lastly, why would you want to put yourself in such a position of endorsing this guy Phil?? In any case you have my direct feedback..His accountabilities are not leading him well proven by the fact he is leading for PROFIT once again as baker is doing..Why?? Because they never knew the Lord, and only sense him through others enabling them to profile a non suspecting group of biblically illiterate and blind followers.

    Tim

    1. Hi Tim,

      Thanks again for your thoughtful response. This is fun, huh?

      Proven by scripture..and testing the spirits to see if they are of God or not..Another point. One cannot be restored if he was never called in the first place such as Haggard who confesses of these issues even in his teen years, obviously disqualifying him for leadership, but qualifying him moreso for very deep counseling and help.

      What Scripture have you proven your case with? What spirits have you really tested? How do you know Ted was never called to be a Pastor? Because he struggled with some issues? Do you struggle Tim?

      Secondly, Did I hire him??? I guess this shows moreso the differences of view from a overall perspective..The direct answer is Yes, I am responsible for testing him and judging him as well to determine if he is qualified as all sheep are commanded.
      Phil, we are to be sheep, but not BLIND SHEEP who followed this phony for 20 years!! Yes, we are very much responsible..

      We are all responsible to judge Pastors? Would that be ALL pastors or just the famous ones who fell? It’s interesting that many Christians never even heard of Ted until AFTER he fell. How many of those sheep who followed Ted for 20 years are still around? Did you follow Ted for 20 years Tim or did you start following after he fell?

      It doesnt’ matter who his accountablity partners are..For obviously they have failed at their position as well..His accountablity parnters would not be encouraging him but rather counseling him to help him see he is still in great DENIAL!!

      They did fail Ted but they aren’t around any longer. They threw him away like a hot dog wrapper after he fell my friend. They not only turned their back on him but EXILED him. How is that biblical. That my friend is the real tragedy in this story.

      Phil, hear what this man has said in his life statement!!! The man lived with this demon of sorts from youth without it ever being discussed or slightly mentioned to the elders he had homosexual feelings!! and his PARTNERS ignored this very serious statement that haggard made on the Oprah show..

      You don’t struggle with things Tim? I’ll bet your pastor does and like Ted is probably too afraid to say anything for fear of losing his job.

      That should pretty much sum up his accountabilities Phil shouldn’t it??

      Yea, that was the past my friend.

      In closing Phil, you say you are certain all these matters are taken care of now?? How is it you are so certain?? a 14 thousand membership with a fleet of corporate sorts were his accountabilities then, and they treated him like a cash cow or rock star never to let anyone see any crack muchless worthless vessel of the Lord degrading the word and Christ’s name.

      I said I was fairly certain those issues were discussed. Please don’t put words in my mouth. They don’t taste too good.

      No, I cannot go down that road of trust as you have,,for I fear should I promote him or endorse him as you are I would carry the burden of accountablity of this man..I will not cosign for him as you are, for protection of the flock and protection of myself receiving judgement of God for leading a released flock back to an evil Wolf..

      What road have I gone down Tim? I’ve chosen to err on the side of grace then the side of condemnation and I pray that I am correct. I’m not “co-signing” and no one asked you to do so either.

      I absolutely in good conscience cannot as a sheep muchless a responsible shepherd give reason as one does in a man made courts to find a reasonable doubt to allow this phony to continue..I sense God’s courts do not incorporate reasonable doubt,,for all is seen in His courts..

      Well, that’s your opinion but I would hope you based that on more then just the Oprah Winfrey show. You haven’t as yet based it on Scripture and I look forward to the day you do.

      Lastly, why would you want to put yourself in such a position of endorsing this guy Phil?? In any case you have my direct feedback..His accountabilities are not leading him well proven by the fact he is leading for PROFIT once again as baker is doing..Why?? Because they never knew the Lord, and only sense him through others enabling them to profile a non suspecting group of biblically illiterate and blind followers.

      Well, now that your misinformation has been cleared up I look forward to your next response!

      Phil

  9. HI Phil,

    I enjoy the discourse, and feel there is a need to air out these issues regardless if we see eye to eye..I do not know how to block your responses so I can reply as you have to make it easier for discussion points..let me know how to do that if you will…

    Testing the Spirits issue: At this stage of my understanding testing begins with doctrine and moves to testing one’s fruit especially at the leadership level.

    I must say you sure give this old boy alot of lee way and I respect you only for that because I respect you and for no other reason.

    The scriptures you use are good and I am fully aware of them Phil..They are basic in nature..The issue I see you and I are differing on is brotherhood versus leadership especially that of a Pastor!!

    I did say he should be restored as a brother, but a leader especially as boyd as proclaimed to bring in a church for profit is a whole other issue.

    I can bring chapter and verse into it, however I see no need due to the fact it is apparent of the warnings througout the new and old testament about those who feast upon the prey.

    I will go down this path when you say the guy repented..Well, yes he repented so to speak but not with out FIRST AND FOREMOST being outed!! He Practiced these God forsaken sins as a Pastor and the bible is clear without chapter and verse they are to be removed…Fornication versus homosexual which is a PERVSION of sex to complicate the issue..Paul states fornication is not to made becoming a christian!! how much more a mature leader christian.

    Point 2: Regarding the sin issue…Sins seperate us from God, but there are distinctions between how grave the sin and I would hope that is clear without a chapter and verse..hating a brother is counted as murder..however they are not stoned to death in public are they Phil?? But a murderer was stoned to death..

    The lesson here Phil is simply the consequences of public sin is dealt with according to the grievance or severity of the sin..Peter’s sin , and such was not an offense that ended leadership..Haggard’s is an offense that ends it..Drugs Phil,,deceitfulness for 20 years Phil?? He did not come forward but was turned in…

    This is much different than a pastor who maybe having family issues and dealing with them like everyone else as an example..

    You are taking sin and generalizing it..As far as David’s sin..Yes, he was a murderer and he was restored…Does that mean Haggard is placed on the same level as a King David!!??

    I would think not even close…Again Phil, I am not arguing about Haggard’s position as a brother in the Lord..but as a leader in the Lord is a whole other issue entirely..

    Point 3: wow, this is going to take a long time..The sin issue..Yes, Phil I sin LOL!! very rhetorical..However, I do not practice sin..This is what John is stating Phil is he not??? Those who practice living in sin such as a sex issue wilfully without repentence is stating they are not of God..For if they were they would repent of that sin not stay in it.

    Haggard was in a 20 year sin state MAN!! c’mon Phil..

    We are in such a state in this world that these Losers and false teachers are given such leniancy that it becomes a promotion of evil letting these losers prostitute the church for a buck while they get their nose powdered and sexual desires satisfied by whoever and whatever…

    They are not deserving of such defense…

    POint 4: A fallen Elder!!?? Phil really?? What makes you think he ever was an elder or leader?? The guy admitted to these sins of his youth that he kept in the closet and groomed throughout his ministry!!! Would God call such a creep?? NO, He would not and it is clear in the written word..

    The folks are simply dooped and will continue to be dooped..He was a captured sinner who thought he could get away with it all, and he did for two decades because the body of Christ was so lame that they could not distinguish between a wolf and a shepherd and apparently still cant’..

    Paul named names and called them out..We are instructed to do the same Phil?? Do I need really to provide chapter and verse..?? It is the simple word of God not a great theological point.. but I will provide it..perhaps you will state I am not exegeting properly..

    Point 5: I agree that christians do exile their injured no question..However, there is a proper point to exile..Whatever the case is, and for the case of their church, as far as I am concerned those who were by his side are just as guilty..for they should have had the discernment and did when Haggard told them he had gay fantasy’s..and they ignored them..

    Which means Phil, they are all a bunch of heathens making a buck off the good folk who put their trust and hard earned money in their filthy pockets..I would chastise them all and throw them all out!!! That’s what a corporation does..and they ran the church as a money machine as all false ministry’s do…They were protecting their pockets by fearing the people would lose their false confidence in them…and this Phil is called a CON JOB!!!

    Simple stuff Phil,,no need for a theological review unless you desire I will continue on your theology protecting these creeps..:) I say that with Respect Phil…:)

    Point 6: You say you are not co-signing but falling on the side of Grace..I would say that maybe a good sign to fall on if you do not understand the truth..however, to call allowing a wolf and fallen pastor in the eyes of the many in the church and the world Grace is precarious at best..I call it an utter disgrace at best!!

    A pastor or leader is to be a WATCHMAN of the flock!!! It is the well being of the Flock Phil not the well being of the Pastor so called that is of primary concern..

    Chapter and verse is all over the place..Peter..Feed my sheep..Do you love me Peter Christ said 3 times..Feed my Sheep!!! The sheep were fed filth by a horrendous hypocrite!!! Their funds went to this whole administration staff which most should be removed…hard or not..

    Grace without proper judgement is nothing more than Feeding the Wolves not the Lambs!!! Great sermon point isn’t it Phil??

    So many more topics Phil, and please instruct me how to outline the topics for direct reply..It would make it easier..

    Love ya bro..but this kind of grace makes me very queezy at best..for all the wolves have received it..Just look at bakerA and tilton and the now newly divorce Hinn!! All continue to prosper very well living in luxury off the widows mite and off the ignorance of most american biblically illiterate sheep..

    Tim

    1. Hi Tim,

      Sorry for the delay. The electricity has been out here all day long. Thanks again for your thoughtful replies.

      I enjoy the discourse, and feel there is a need to air out these issues regardless if we see eye to eye..I do not know how to block your responses so I can reply as you have to make it easier for discussion points..let me know how to do that if you will…

      I’m enjoying this as well and I don’t expect there will be many who agree with me but so be it. Most people weighing in on the matter don’t have all the facts which makes it difficult to make a righteous judgment.

      Testing the Spirits issue: At this stage of my understanding testing begins with doctrine and moves to testing one’s fruit especially at the leadership level.

      I must say you sure give this old boy alot of lee way and I respect you only for that because I respect you and for no other reason.

      The scriptures you use are good and I am fully aware of them Phil..They are basic in nature..The issue I see you and I are differing on is brotherhood versus leadership especially that of a Pastor!!

      I’m not giving Ted any lee way Tim. I have concerns just like the majority do. I just want to base those concerns against what God’s Word has to say on the matter rather then emotions. After all God’s Word is the final authority on all matters and I’m certain you would agree with me.

      I did say he should be restored as a brother, but a leader especially as boyd as proclaimed to bring in a church for profit is a whole other issue.

      That’s good you feel he should be restored as a brother. I’m happy to hear you say this however I think “church for profit” is a bit of speculation on your part don’t you think? Did he “incorporate”? Sure. Did he do it for profit purposes? No. Ted’s never been a money hounding Pastor and until he fell his ministry was clean as a whistle in terms of the IRS and in biblical terms. His salary was meager in relation to other Senior Pastor salaries of similar sized congregations. Lets be careful about judging motives and lets try and stick with the issues.

      I can bring chapter and verse into it, however I see no need due to the fact it is apparent of the warnings througout the new and old testament about those who feast upon the prey.

      I will go down this path when you say the guy repented..Well, yes he repented so to speak but not with out FIRST AND FOREMOST being outed!! He Practiced these God forsaken sins as a Pastor and the bible is clear without chapter and verse they are to be removed…Fornication versus homosexual which is a PERVSION of sex to complicate the issue..Paul states fornication is not to made becoming a christian!! how much more a mature leader christian.

      I would love for you to bring chapter and verse into this Tim. Its a standard of truth I hold near and dear to my heart.

      Now correct me if I’m wrong here but didn’t David repent AFTER being “outed” so to speak? He certainly didn’t “fess up” and repent all on his own did he? There are plenty of biblical instances where others were called out on their sins which brought about repentance. Peter comes to mind as well.

      Sexual immorality is wrong whether its with members of the opposite sex or the same sex. If Ted had committed sexual immorality with a female he would still be the Pastor at New Life. I’m convinced of that. Plus also keep in mind the man accusing Ted has since publicly admitted he lied but no one seems to want to address that issue. Why’s that?

      Point 2: Regarding the sin issue…Sins seperate us from God, but there are distinctions between how grave the sin and I would hope that is clear without a chapter and verse..hating a brother is counted as murder..however they are not stoned to death in public are they Phil?? But a murderer was stoned to death..

      The lesson here Phil is simply the consequences of public sin is dealt with according to the grievance or severity of the sin..Peter’s sin , and such was not an offense that ended leadership..Haggard’s is an offense that ends it..Drugs Phil,,deceitfulness for 20 years Phil?? He did not come forward but was turned in…

      The key word here is was. Now we are supposed to be under the Law of Grace Tim. We don’t stone false prophets, adulterers and murderers to death any longer but we sure do crucify these folks verbally when they do commit these acts.

      Haggards offenses did end his leadership. The whole point of this discussion is supposed to be about whether Ted is biblically qualified to once again assume a leadership role. You and many others around the blogosphere continually bring up the mans past sins and hold them against him…..sins he has REPENTED of BTW.

      This is much different than a pastor who maybe having family issues and dealing with them like everyone else as an example..

      You are taking sin and generalizing it..As far as David’s sin..Yes, he was a murderer and he was restored…Does that mean Haggard is placed on the same level as a King David!!??

      I’m not generalizing anything here Tim. It grieves me that Ted committed these acts but what’s done is done. He has thankfully repented of these sins and is now, whether you, I or anyone else seems to think otherwise, is back into church leadership. Is he biblically qualified? That’s the question. I think he is based on the requirements found in 1Timothy 3:1-7……

      Why should David be on a higher level the anyone else Tim? Bear in mind David was a Jew and fell under the old law where we, as Christians, are under the new law covered by the Blood of Christ.

      I would think not even close…Again Phil, I am not arguing about Haggard’s position as a brother in the Lord..but as a leader in the Lord is a whole other issue entirely..

      So far you haven’t even touched the requirements of elder and I look forward to the time when you do so.

      Point 3: wow, this is going to take a long time..The sin issue..Yes, Phil I sin LOL!! very rhetorical..However, I do not practice sin..This is what John is stating Phil is he not???  Those who practice living in sin such as a sex issue wilfully without repentence is stating they are not of God..For if they were they would repent of that sin not stay in it.

      Haggard was in a 20 year sin state MAN!! c’mon Phil..

      20 years? Where on earth did you come up with that nonsense? He certainly wasn’t doing drugs for 20 years Tim nor was he involved in inappropriate relationships with men for 20 years. You are confusing struggling with issues with actually committing the act of sin. Big difference my friend.

      We are in such a state in this world that these Losers and false teachers are given such leniancy that it becomes a promotion of evil letting these losers prostitute the church for a buck while they get their nose powdered and sexual desires satisfied by whoever and whatever…

      They are not deserving of such defense…

      Ted Haggard is not a loser nor is he a false teacher. He is a brother in the Lord who fell and repented. He certainly hasn’t prostituted the church but I think New Life prostituted him and when they were finished with him they threw him and his family away like they were hot dog wrappers. That’s the real story my friend.

      POint 4: A fallen Elder!!?? Phil really?? What makes you think he ever was an elder or leader?? The guy admitted to these sins of his youth that he kept in the closet and groomed throughout his ministry!!! Would God call such a creep?? NO, He would not and it is clear in the written word..

      The folks are simply dooped and will continue to be dooped..He was a captured sinner who thought he could get away with it all, and he did for two decades because the body of Christ was so lame that they could not distinguish between a wolf and a shepherd and apparently still cant’..

      Why, he was an elder. The fact you don’t recognize that doesn’t make it so. Have you publicly admitted every one of your sins Tim? What do you have buried in your closet? Groomed throughout his ministry? How so?

      He thought he could get away with it? Now you are a mind reader? The Body of Christ is lame? How so? Ted Haggard isn’t a “wolf” either.

      Paul named names and called them out..We are instructed to do the same Phil?? Do I need really to provide chapter and verse..?? It is the simple word of God not a great theological point.. but I will provide it..perhaps you will state I am not exegeting properly..

      I’ve named more names on this site then you ever will in three lifetimes brother. The difference is I don’t kick people when they are down especially brothers in the Lord. That seems to be a sport for some and it is a stench in the nostrils of God. I’m not accusing you of doing so BTW.

      Point 5: I agree that christians do exile their injured no question..However, there is a proper point to exile..Whatever the case is, and for the case of their church, as far as I am concerned those who were by his side are just as guilty..for they should have had the discernment and did when Haggard told them he had gay fantasy’s..and they ignored them..

      Which means Phil, they are all a bunch of heathens making a buck off the good folk who put their trust and hard earned money in their filthy pockets..I would chastise them all and throw them all out!!! That’s what a corporation does..and they ran the church as a money machine as all false ministry’s do…They were protecting their pockets by fearing the people would lose their false confidence in them…and this Phil is called a CON JOB!!!

      I’m not going to deal with the above as it has no bearing on whether Ted is biblically qualified to hold the office of elder.

      Simple stuff Phil,,no need for a theological review unless you desire I will continue on your theology protecting these creeps..:) I say that with Respect Phil…:)

      I am protecting my brother in the Lord. That’s what Jesus would do and that’s something I rarely see these days from “Christians”. It makes me sick how we tear down our wounded rather then help them get up after they fall.

      Point 6: You say you are not co-signing but falling on the side of Grace..I would say that maybe a good sign to fall on if you do not understand the truth..however, to call allowing a wolf and fallen pastor in the eyes of the many in the church and the world Grace is precarious at best..I call it an utter disgrace at best!!

      A pastor or leader is to be a WATCHMAN of the flock!!! It is the well being of the Flock Phil not the well being of the Pastor so called that is of primary concern..

      I actually know more about this story then you think and I don’t get my info from the TV or Internet. That’s why I can offer grace to my REPENTANT brother in the Lord.

      Who watched out for Ted? No one. That’s the other major problem I have with this whole mess. Who watches out for the shepherd Tim? It should be the other shepherds but unfortunately they seem to have been only watching out for themselves…..what a pity isn’t it?

      Chapter and verse is all over the place..Peter..Feed my sheep..Do you love me Peter Christ said 3 times..Feed my Sheep!!! The sheep were fed filth by a horrendous hypocrite!!! Their funds went to this whole administration staff which most should be removed…hard or not..

      How were they fed horrendous filth Tim? I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of Pastors out there doing a whole lot worse then Ted ever did. They even get caught and are right back in the pulpit. There are atheists and agnostics in pulpits worldwide my friend. The church is a great refuge for scoundrals but Ted Haggard isn’t one of them.

      Grace without proper judgement is nothing more than Feeding the Wolves not the Lambs!!!  Great sermon point isn’t it Phil??

      I’ve actually preached that sermon Tim and I am definitely not feeding any wolves. I shoot wolves my friend and when I fire away I hammer my brother. This site is loaded with that stuff.

      So many more topics Phil, and please instruct me how to outline the topics for direct reply..It would make it easier..

      Love ya bro..but this kind of grace makes me very queezy at best..for all the wolves have received it..Just look at bakerA and tilton and the now newly  divorce Hinn!! All continue to prosper very well living in luxury off the widows mite and off the ignorance of most american biblically illiterate sheep..

      Bakker and Hinn have been topics on this blog. Tilton not so only because he isn’t significant enough nor do I know enough about him except that he is a repeat offender in terms of teaching a false gospel for financial gain.

      Do I haved concerns about Ted Pastoring again? Sure. I wish he would never accept such a position and just stick with giving his testimony. Not because he isn’t qualified but because of the hatred and malice many within the professing Body of Christ has shown him and his family.

      You know something? What’s done is done and rather then talk about the past sins of Ted Haggard we should all be praying that history doesn’t repeat itself and our brother in Christ finishes his race well.

      Phil

  10. This has been good guys. Let me argue with myself for a second.

    I’m sure that if Ted has had any discussion with an attorney he has been advised to set up a 501c for his own protection. The liability risk of opening up your home to the world could be considerable. Many fundamental christian have no problem incorporating their businesses to protect themselves and their assets even though they critize ministers for doing the same. I understand the situation any ministry is facing in todays world and to ignore them would make them poor stewards. The tax laws are the problem and everybody knows it. I would just rather he would call it a ministry or outreach or whatever. Probably 90 percent of the organizations that call themselve churches are not scripturally.

  11. When the news broke of the secret problems of this man’s life, I was so irritated. I thought to myself, “why would he do such a thing- especially knowing what position he is in?”— But, knowing of all the things that I have been through, whether they are similar to this or not, I know that God forgives. He doesn’t make us jump through hoops… He just calls us to repentance. Jesus said, “Where are your accusers now?”– If you search yourself and be honest with yourself… this could have happened to anyone. Maybe not the exact sin.. but anyone can be lured into any number of sins that we would not want broadcast. He made a HUGE mistake… and then he lied about it. Please let me know if you’ve never done that before… because I know I have. The only difference is that mine wasn’t on CNN. Give this guy and his family a break– Jesus did.

    1. Hi Rachel,

      Your points are well taken and who can not be empathetic when it comes to human flaws,for we all deal with it daily..

      The point I would make with you is simply this…Jesus stated a very serious point..and said (paraphrased) Let not all desire to be TEACHERS!!

      A steward of Gods’ word requires a very upright life style!! If you desire to teach then you carry the BURDEN of living to a higher STANDARD!! This guy did not just sin either Rachel..

      Haggard LIVED IN SIN UNREPENTENTLY!!! I doubt he is or at least was even a christian..For I John clearly states if you are born of the seed of God..Born Again, you cannot sin..meaning one cannot live in sin without repentence!!

      This guy had lived in it with sexual pervsion, not just sexual sin among other unmentionables as an ELITE LEADER OF the EVangelical Organization..

      I hope that helps to divide the comparison..The contrast is much greater than the comparison of human flaw!! Willful unrepentent sin is not common among true christians at all..For that would make them Liars according to the word of God in I john..

      Please read all of I, II and III John very short books..It defines who is of the Lord and who is not in black and white..The fruit is the test of a leader indeed as well as he doctrines he upholds, professes and preaches..

      You are not living in sin, neither do you teach!! He does and did for 20 or more years…No comparison there and he is to be named and marked as Paul warns..

      The reason we have so many wolves is because there is an improper understanding how we deal with sin and the boundaries and standards..Political correctness and biblical illiteracy is killing the Body of Christ indeed…

      Surely it is true only the few will enter..The rest will simply state, Have we not prophesied in your name and done mighty works..and He will say I never knew you!!

      The question isn’t do we know Him, but more importantly does He know us!!

      Tim

    2. I think the question was whether Haggard qualifies to pastor a church or not. We all sin and obtain mercy but church leadership is different.

      “Now the overseer must be above reproach..” – 1 Tim 3:2

      “Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless..” – Tit 1:7

      IMO Scripture disqualifies him to pastor a church. But if he wants to evangelize to unbelievers, i don’t think there’s a problem.

  12. Here is Chapter and verse one of many..Howbeit better to read the whole chapter and versus to glean the whole story regarding the treacherous that walk among us.

    Ted Haggard in my humble opinion unfortunately falls into this grave warning by Peter…The second chance doctrine that floats around is very suspect as well, letting leading one to believe God deals with sin lightly especially patterned sin, or a falling again into sin.

    Remember Haggard walked into this self called appointed ministry with all these issues from childhood confessing of childhood molestation to where he is now. A man that is called is not called with these serious injuries to one’s soul, body and mind..Rather they are led to a place of healing and restoration.

    This is the other great clue a good father does not use the lame or blind to lead a flock that carries great responsibility and judgement..For the Pastor will give account in the day of judgement how he has Led God’s lambs, not his lambs!!!

    Again, as Baker, He is stating he does not seek a mega church, however he is doing the very thing that led to his mega church out of his home..Baker likewise said he would never do the same as he did..and now he is selling condo’s and trinkets including salvation packs for a love gift!!!

    All these CONS are very mysteriously alike!!! God has given us the flock many clues..The shepherds are very weak even afraid to name the names of Satan’s servants..which I would include Haggard..

    Haggard now is guilty until proven innocent!! He is an unproven vessel…The Lord Says’ in Dueteronomy paraphrased to the Prophets that are not called of God or if what they say does not come to pass…He Say’s he will never use them again therefore the people do not need to be afraid!!

    We do not need to be afraid of Ted Haggard, for he has proven to speak falsely, and live a life of great sin for 20 years in a soverien pulpit…!!! His priestly robe has been stripped from him and the pulpit removed….The people do not need to be afraid of discounting this fraud of great false light…

    Read God’s word as it is written below…and let it be a warning to all many more Ted Haggards are among us and will continue to grow greatly until Christ’s return to receive those who have kept their light’s trimmmed!!

    A Letter from Simon Peter
    kittykit | June 4, 2010 at 2:46 AM | Categories: Angels, Bible, End times, False Doctrine, False Teachers, Jesus Christ, Old Testament | URL: http://wp.me/podCJ-34g

    A Letter from Simon PeterÂ
    2 Peter 1
    Â 1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    Â 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

    Â 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    Â 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Â 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

    Â 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    Â 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    Â 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Â 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    Â 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Â 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Â 12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

    Â 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

    Â 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

    Â 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

    Â 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    Â 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Â 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    Â 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    Â 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Â 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    2 Peter 2
    Â 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Â 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    Â 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    Â 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Â 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    Â 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    Â 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

    Â 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    Â 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

    Â 10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

    Â 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

    Â 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

    Â 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

    Â 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

    Â 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    Â 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

    Â 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

    Â 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

    Â 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

    Â 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    Â 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    Â 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    2 Peter 3
    Â 1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:Â

    2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:Â

    3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,Â

    4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.Â

    5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:Â

    6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:Â

    7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.Â

    8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.Â

    9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.Â

    10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.Â

    11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,Â

    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Â

    13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.Â

    14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.Â

    15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;Â

    16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.Â

    17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.Â

    18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

  13. A little over 2 weeks ago Haggard was publicly denying that he was about to start a new church.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/7014924.html

    Now he has launched his new church with a Hollywood film crew and a full press conference. There is no way this wasn’t in the works when he incorporated on May 20.

    This man is a liar. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits.

    A few months ago Ted responded to some of my comments here on this blog. He said he was already back in ministry because the people had spoken. In all of his self justification there was not one hint of Gods will, only the will of the people and the will of Ted.

    In the most recent comments from Ted and Gayle are just as self justifying. They say they are returning to Colorado Springs because they feel a need to finish their story where it began. This is all about Ted and Gayle and their selfish need to be vindicated at all costs. I ask again, where is the will of God in this. Those who are in leadership positions must be called by God to that position.

    Wake up folks – not everyone who calls Him Lord knows Him. The Lord is revealing the tares to those who have eyes to see.

    One more thing. Based on this quote from Ted I think we can expect to see a Ted & Gayle reality show in the near future

    Ted was asked about rumors of a reality show. He said there was no reality show in the works. “I have no ambition. No goals,” he said.

    1. Hey Steve,

      How have you been?

      A little over 2 weeks ago Haggard was publicly denying that he was about to start a new church.

      http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/7014924.html

      Now he has launched his new church with a Hollywood film crew and a full press conference. There is no way this wasn’t in the works when he incorporated on May 20.

      This man is a liar. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits.

      You are kidding right? Why does he have to answer their questions and more importantly doesn’t he get to choose when and how to make whatever announcement he decides to make that concerns him and his church?

      The simple fact is it wasn’t any of their business and seeing how he has been crucified in the press and in the blogosphere why should he tell them anything? Would you? I wouldn’t have either.

      Phil

    2. C’mon Phil – you’re smarter than that.

      On May 19 Haggard granted an interview in which he explained why he filed incorporation papers for St. James church. During that interview he specifically denied that he was about to start a new church but left the option open by saying “no one knows what the future holds”

      On May 27 his publicist contacted the media to announce that “Ted Haggard will make a “surprise groundbreaking” announcement next Wednesday from his home in Colorado Springs, Colo”

      On June 2 Haggard announces the new church

      Don’t tell me he had no obligation to talk to the media – the guy has courted the media throughout this whole thing. He has a publicist and a PR firm for Pete’s sake.

      He lied about his intentions on May 19 knowing full well that he was planning his new church. He is untrustworthy.

      I’m afraid your friendship with Ted is clouding your discernment in this matter

  14. Hi Arthur,

    I think the question was whether Haggard qualifies to pastor a church or not. We all sin and obtain mercy but church leadership is different.

    “Now the overseer must be above reproach..” – 1 Tim 3:2

    “Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless..” – Tit 1:7

    IMO Scripture disqualifies him to pastor a church. But if he wants to evangelize to unbelievers, i don’t think there’s a problem.

    That’s blameless to those who are without and the only ones that seem to be blaming him are the Christians.

    http://www.gazette.com/opinion/live-99734-ted-haggard.html

    One more thing Brother. Those requirements are in the present tense otherwise who except Jesus would be blameless?

    Thanks,

    Phil

    1. Hello Arthur, Steve / Phil:

      Well Phil, with all due respect you are right the sentiments in this christian blog fall heavily against Haggard and Arthur has supplied the most targeted chapter and verse of which you now are saying the interpetation of that verse is not applied correctly by Arthur!!

      The blameless issue: Believe it or not Phil I now many non christians that could qualify for blameless when it comes to a moral life!!! They just don’t believe in Christ!!

      The chapter and verse is very poignant Phil. I just reviewed the taped Oprah show where Oprah asked him why he would buy meth and then throw them away as he stated he did when he was originally confronted with it..

      He said to Oprah and confessed he was LYING about it. Ok, that was present then, even when he was confronted he lied until he came to obvious terms with it.

      So, your intepetation of blameless means as long as you repented from Grievous sins, and yes sex is a huge issue simply because the Bible makes it a huge issue in light of all the many sins..

      Well, what happens then Phil after someone comes clean and then becomes blameless again PRESENT TENSE, and then of course becomes tainted again for they will according to your statements correct??

      You said who isn’t blameless? And you are right we all sin and continue to have flawed lives until he comes again..

      I believe it that really were the case, this verse has no meaning..It is entirely rhetorical..unless it means as you say, which quite frankly does not add up.

      I will await your reply..I will do a study on this passage..

      Lastly, again the bible is filled with the notion of protecting the sheep Phil, not the shepherd..I am sure you agree..It is stated many were damaged in their church and left!!

      AS far as the other leaders who are appointed to look after the shepherd, well it’s laughable Phil..They too are Punks who have abused their office..The sheep are not to look after the shepherd’s moral stability..They know they are blameless and mature..The shepherd will give account of the sheep..

      Where in the bible does it explicitly say the sheep are to look after the shepherd..Again, keep it in scope..Of course they pray for the shepherd…Man, if you give the donation I am certain plenty of prayers go with it…

      Tim

    2. That’s blameless to those who are without and the only ones that seem to be blaming him are the Christians.

      Phil, I assure you Christians won’t be the only ones blaming him. If you know anything about Islam, some of them might even faint if they learn that a man with such a past is leading a church.

      One more thing Brother. Those requirements are in the present tense otherwise who except Jesus would be blameless?

      I think it means blameless before men because even those who except Jesus are not exactly blameless in God’s sight. I also don’t think the requirements are in the present tense only as you suggest. A person with a shameful past would still be an abomination today, particularly for unbelievers.

  15. Tim.

    Thanks for your comment.

    AS far as the other leaders who are appointed to look after the shepherd, well it’s laughable Phil..They too are Punks who have abused their office..The sheep are not to look after the shepherd’s moral stability..They know they are blameless and mature..The shepherd will give account of the sheep..

    Where in the bible does it explicitly say the sheep are to look after the shepherd..Again, keep it in scope..Of course they pray for the shepherd…Man, if you give the donation I am certain plenty of prayers go with it…

    Tim, where did I say the sheep are to look out for the shepherd? You keep putting words in my mouth. As I stated before they don’t taste too good. Please read more carefully ok?

    Phil

    1. Phil,

      please understand, I know you did not say that, and if I have explicitly said that and state again explicitly stated that I apologize, for i know you did not say that..

      Now that we are clear :) I am simply stating you appear to have more concern for a wolf than you do the sheep this wolf devoured and hurt not to mention the unsaved who now have more amunition against the cause of Christ..

      I try to keep it simple Phil..For you a pastor, must have more compassion for the wounded Haggard committed than the poor shepherd who his in house church co-leaders committed against him..

      Is that more clear??

      Bless you bro, I know you are taking a beating on this part of the blog, but I feel for you for I know how it hurts to have one’s you protect attacked…In any event, a wolf must die exposed to all!! or his acts..

      Can you seperate a man from their acts?? The bible clearly defines the Wicked as People not just the acts of people seperating the sin from the person..PLease don’t use this point to evaluate..

      The point simply is Haggard cannot be biblically restored as any kind of leader..however as brother all is well..I don’t think he is a brother either by the way..but I don’t care to expound on it for the leader part is so much more critical..

  16. Steve,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I’m afraid your friendship with Ted is clouding your discernment in this matter

    You may very well be correct my friend.

    Phil

  17. To All, Especially Phil:

    This article was written february 2010 regarding the mark of a false guide and if they deserve to be returned to office as Phil states.

    Phil, you probably know this ministry Jacob Prasch who I have held as a fine theologian, Apologist and Scholar providing the chapter and verse and RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word where most of us go wrong that haven’t taken the time TO STUDY TO SHOW THEMSELVES APPROVED.

    Phil, I would appreciate your comments regarding this theologians views.. I have contacted other renowned ministers including Sandy Simpson the author of http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com website and proven Apologist.

    Again, Phil I appreciate your passion for compassion!!! God knows how the christian community is so imperfect and does have a reputation for killing their injured..HOwever exposing a wolf does not fall into the same category..

    More scriptural evidence of Haggard’s deceit and credibility downfalls..not to ever be mentioned among any leader including a greeter at church..

    Here are your Chapter and versus as well Phil,,Hope this helps:

    FEBRUARY 4TH, 2010
    This entry posted by MORIELDANNY
    Haggard, Bentley, Liardon and Company
    “Is God’s Word No Longer The Standard?”
    by James Jacob Prasch

    What do Ted Haggard, Todd Bentley, and Roberts Liardon all have in common?

    •All either compromised with false doctrine or preached it even before their public falls from grace.
    As we have warned repeatedly, like morally discredited false teachers from Jim Bakker to Paul Cain and Bob Jones, when someone goes off doctrinally it is a symptom that they have gone off morally. And when someone goes off morally, it is almost inevitable they will also go off doctrinally.

    •All have an exposed history of homosexuality while claiming to oppose homosexuality.

    •All have constructed bogus doctrinal justifications for returning to the ministry.
    Such tragic figures always employ the same arguments to justify their return to Christian leadership after publicly discrediting the body of Christ and openly dishonoring the name of Jesus. While I myself have no propensity towards homosexuality, I am not without my own proclivities and can only prayerfully trust Jesus to prevent me from transgressing in a manner no less serious and depraved. As Paul says, “Let he who thinks he stands take care lest he fall”. This consideration should be foremost in all of our minds when we observe the debauchery and hypocrisy of men like Bentley, Haggard, and Liardon.

    However, God’s standard remains fixed. In the New Testament someone cannot be in ministry unless they have a good name with those outside of the church where the world cannot bring a discrediting indictment against them. [1] We are warned specifically that those being in ministry whose witness and testimony to the unsaved world is not good that for such men to remain or return to ministry, or to be in ministry at all, is a snare of the devil that will trap them, according to Paul. And that they will fall into reproach. Yet we repeatedly see the likes of Haggard, Bentley, and Liardon throwing themselves into that trap when in fact they can never have a good reputation with those outside of the church.

    In order to justify their rejection of plain teaching of the New Testament, such villains characteristically misinterpret a narrative of the Old Testament where God forgave David for his sin with Bathsheeba. An exegetically distorted misinterpretation of the Old Testament can never negate the unambiguous instruction found in the New Testament. In fact, David was never a member of the clergy. He was not an Aaronic priest and held no Levitical office. He rather had a political office and was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi. It is a false comparison, to say the least, to say that a political figure being restored to leadership in the Old Testament has an equivalency with a member of the clergy being restored to ministry in the New Testament. Moreover, such an argument becomes doubly erroneous by virtue of the fact that David was never restored to leadership because he was never removed from leadership to begin with. The entire argument is absurd.

    Yet it is on this exegetically hollow basis and the abject false conclusion derived from it that Colin Dye of the Elim Movement in the UK brings money preacher Roberts Liardon into the ministry at Kensington Temple in London. One can only wonder if the Word of God has any place or meaning to the Elim Movement of Britain and New Zealand whatsoever.

    After abandoning his wife and three children and running off with another woman who he has since married in a scenario that Jesus described as “an adulterous marriage” in the Sermon on the Mount, Rick Joyner has sought to rehabilitate criminally convicted homosexual pedophile Todd Bentley back into the ministry along with the woman he ran off with who is now preaching prophetic dreams of dancing elephants and communication with the dead. If Joyner’s actions do not constitute a de facto endorsement of religious whoredom and a sanction of necromancy, it is difficult to imagine what does. Meanwhile, Bentley’s three children languish at home in Canada with his biblically rightful wife while Joyner shamefully applauds the spectacle.

    Now Ted Haggard is making his play for an auto-rehabilitation. He and his wife are cashing in on his history of scandal with a book that has seen his wife appearing on the TV talk show circuit speaking to unsaved television talk show personalities as the world witnesses the church’s humiliation upon further humiliation. His wife’s book is the prelude to his strategy for coming back into the ministry after it was revealed that the former President of the National Association of Evangelicals, who was already consorting with doctrinally off-base figures, was involved with paying male prostitutes for unnatural sex and taking dangerous intoxicating drugs recreationally. And then lied through his teeth about it to his church. All of a sudden he is supposedly “restored”.

    We have seen the same reprehensible pattern with drunken pervert Paul Cain and sexual predator Bob Jones of the Kansas City false prophets and, not least of all, Jim Bakker.

    No one suggests that a fallen brother or sister who truly repents cannot be forgiven and restored to fellowship, but once they no longer can have a good name or reputation with those outside of the church, 1 Timothy teaches clearly that they can no longer be restored to ministry or leadership. Indeed, the book of Proverbs teaches plainly that “a good name” is to be desired above all else. And these pathetic individuals have given themselves a bad name for which, apart from the devil, they can blame no one but their own selves.

    If someone in such an unfortunate situation truly repented, they would accept the ramifications of their misdeeds, do all they could to make amends, and abide by the teachings of Scripture that prohibits them from being in further ministry or leadership. Instead, one after another (including Jimmy Swaggart) they march headlong into what St. Paul call’s “Satan’s trap”. And in the eyes of the world bring further reproach to themselves, to the church, and to the name of Christ.

    We are forced to conclude either that their repentance is therefore disingenuous and malmotivated or else they are so fundamentally ignorant of God’s Word that they should never have been in the ministry at all to begin with.

    Christianity is a faith based on forgiveness. We can forgive, but we cannot expect the world to forget. Satan and the unsaved will always have adequate ammunition based on the past to use against them, against the church, and against the cause of Christ. For sure, not all of the corruption and hypocrisy has been sexually related, although most of it has involved this kind of immorality. Or in the cases of Haggard, Bentley, Liardon, and Paul Cain, even what they themselves admit is unnatural perversion.

    The divorce and remarriage scandals of Paula White, Ray Macaulley of South Africa, and Ray Bevin of South Wales and the financial shenanigans of Peter Popov, etc. are no less a public disgrace destroying any semblance of a good name or credibility. Yet these also remain in the ministry, pretending it to be somehow acceptable to God when God in His Word says it is not. The capacity of these people to delude themselves and others can only in some way be the product of a reprobate mind.

    For three days running, the Los Angeles Times carried front page stories alleging homosexuality by Paul Crouch of TBN. Crouch vociferously denied the charges, expecting the church and the public to believe that he paid $425,000 in and out-of-court legal settlement with a secrecy clause stipulating that the recipient remain silent about these charges of deviant sexual behavior in a wrongful dismissal suit.

    The ultimate indictment however, is not of these malefactors themselves despite their hypocrisy, The indictment is rather of a church willing to tolerate it in abrogation of God’s own divine standards of holiness, sanctification, and qualification for the ministry. The Scriptures decry a willingness by the church to compromise God’s moral standards as arrogance when the church fails to address such situations scripturally and remove such people. [2] Moreover, in no uncertain terms we are commanded to retain God’s standards. [3]

    For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

    Linknotes:
    1.1 Timothy 3:7 ‡
    2.1 Corinthians 5:2 ‡
    3.2 Timothy 1:13 ‡

    1. Hi Tim,

      Personally speaking, I think Jacob Prasch is a internet hack. He states that Ted taught “false doctrine” but he doesn’t say what that “false doctrine” actually is.

      He then claims Ted preached another Jesus yet never gets around to telling us how. Pretty convenient huh?

      The guy is a one trick pony my friend. He likes to point fingers and accuse without any real facts…..

      Phil

    2. PHil,

      Well, I guess that sums that up.. lol : )

      I again can only totally disagree..His one trick is to simply point out the public wolves which are many..and even fewer of those to expose them..

      It’s sad to see you discredit a man who has moral mainstay than this one you protect..in any event I will supply you with more very good apologists, and the next is Sandy Simpson..Is he one trick too??

      Regarding putting words in your mouth I apologize brother..I was hoping you were not so sensitive to see through the lines.

      My point is I have yet to hear one peep from you about the wounded sheep he has committed against them, who gave them their 100 percent trust, devoition and MONEY to only have been informed after 20 years he is a closet blasphemer..or hypocrite at best..

      What about them PHil..You as a Shepherd must hurt for them too dont’ you?? If so, how is that put into play..again read Prasche’s views on this blog..He has done an excellent job keeping on target..

      This is why the wolves abound..Their are not enough Watchman protecting the sheep.

      I hope I have clarified the words I put in your mouth PHil..Please dont’ be so sensitive..I know he is a dear friend of yours, so maybe I am asking too much..

      Tim

  18. Hi Tim,

    Well, I guess that sums that up.. lol : )
    I again can only totally disagree..His one trick is to simply point out the public wolves which are many..and even fewer of those to expose them..

    Tim. This website is chock FULL of wolves being pointed out and called out by name. That’s the primary focus of this site. I’m sorry that you don’t seem to get that.

    It’s sad to see you discredit a man who has moral mainstay than this one you protect..in any event I will supply you with more very good apologists, and the next is Sandy Simpson..Is he one trick too??

    You think I’m the only one who thinks Prasch is a hack? Do a Google search and you will see I’m not alone.

    Regarding putting words in your mouth I apologize brother..I was hoping you were not so sensitive to see through the lines.

    Sensitive? No. I don’t like to be misquoted nor do I enjoy answering your insinuations that I protect wolves. You would be wrong. I don’t believe Ted Haggard is a wolf. You do.

    My point is I have yet to hear one peep from you about the wounded sheep he has committed against them, who gave them their 100 percent trust, devoition and MONEY to only have been informed after 20 years he is a closet blasphemer..or hypocrite at best..

    This posting isn’t about that Tim. This is about qualifications for Pastor. For the record I have either written or spoken with SEVERAL of the sheep at New Life. I don’t usually talk about those things on a blog. That’s the behind the scenes stuff that you know nothing about.

    What about them PHil..You as a Shepherd must hurt for them too dont’ you?? If so, how is that put into play..again read Prasche’s views on this blog..He has done an excellent job keeping on target..

    Sure I care about them. Can you name 5 people who attend New Life who were hurt? I can name more and talked with every one of them. Prayed with them as well and helped them get past the hurt and hopefully one day they will be able to trust again. Of course the majority of those I spoke with had their faith placed in man rather then Christ…..a common malady in the American church.

    Phil

    1. Ok, Phil,

      Please show me exactly where I said that you said thus,”Tim, where did I say the sheep are to look out for the shepherd”?

      Secondly Phil, believe brother no one needs to imply or explicitly say where your heart is..You have done that mastefully yourself evidenced by your other bloggers response..

      So, please dont’ overly pin things on me because I happen to represent a view you do not.

      Also, regarding Prash, yes sir, I am very aware of the attacks against prasch!! Like you I am too versed..What true leader of God doesn’t have enemies
      Remember the verse, if the world hates me it will hate you..Yep, I see alot of negative reply’s to prasch that don’t pass the smell test muchless the biblical test either.. I see the enemies of prasch focusing on the less meaningful points and ignore the heart of the matter Prasch is speaking against.

      And I unlike you believe in his ministry at least a HELL of alot more than the brother you believe should be restored…Moriel does not need restoration for you need to commit horrendous sins to get into that uncalled for position.

      I hope that adequately explains my view on Prasch you call a hack and Haggard you call a brother…WoW!!

      In any event I am awaiting an email back from Sandy Simpson who supports Prasch as well..It won’t mean much to you if you have similar views on Simpson..Reminder: I did not put words in your mouth on Sandy,,I just said this in the event you will accuse me of such doing… : ) Saying all of this with a tone of respect not HOSTILITY Phil : ) Ok??

      Tim : )

    1. Great Phil!!

      I will check out the link..

      However, I have listened to many of Prashes sermons and statements, and haven’t found one yet I don’t share the exact same sentiments except he provides much chapter and verse..

      I know there has to be many that don’t like him..simply because the false shepherds are the popular ones!!! and it doesn’t tickle their fancy!!

      Yes, I will give Sandy your regards!! Have a good sleep brother…

      Love sharpening iron with ya!! I may need to send you some links to, but that in due time..

      Have Good dreams,

      Tim

    2. Phil,

      I don’t see anywhere in this link where I said you said the sheep are to protect the shepherd..I however see in the last paragraph where I mention this point, but NOT that you said it!!!

      It was stated to bring another very hot topic into the equation which was not even mentioned once in the blog, but deserves notation..

      That was my point only..Not that you said it, and neither did I say you said it..

      Show me again, if I am wrong,,You have read into something that I NEVER said..If so, please correct your critisism of me putting words in your mouth..

      All’s fair man!! : )

      Tim

      1. Hi Tim,

        You have made insinuations that it sounded like you were saying that I stated the sheep are to protect the shepherd….if this is not the case then I apologize…

  19. Hi Phil,

    Thanks Phil, I accept your apology, but moreso, that you realize in no way would I say you believe that!! Never!!

    I stated it as an IMPACT statement only…It is part of the equation that I felt can’t be missed when dealing with restoration pastors…for one must not only analyze the sin, but how about not forgetting many damaged for lengths of time.

    I am one victim of such from muchless offenses in the pulpit causing me to get out of church not the Lord, for 25 years due to money desirous preachers from a Christian Center Bible College in Salem, Oregon I attended ran by a well noted Preacher,named Cornwall, who was Judson Cornwalls brother a famous pentecostal Author!!

    Do to their affections with Rhema bible college of which I had no discernment then they started promoting the sowing and reaping doctrine created by the Phony Oral Roberts organization!!

    Yes, Ihave many sentiments as a congregant seeking to hear out a possible calling in the ministry only to be demised by blinded corrupt preachers which were not nearly as horrendous as Haggard!!

    I am one of many victims, but by the grace of God, I never left the Lord or His word, but to this day have not gone back to church now going on 30 years…because of that very thing…Yes, ministers destroy congregants!!! I am one of them…\

    Tim

    1. Hi Tim,

      I deleted your last two comments as I refuse to promote that ministry. I thought I had made that clear. See the right side of the page for ministries and websites I promote.

      I’m glad you brought up the fact you haven’t stepped inside a church in 30 years. I already knew that and wasn’t going to bring that up as it was told to me by you in confidence.

      You have stated in times past you are an apologist. You have also stated in this thread Ted Haggard is self appointed. Who appointed you to be an apologist who warns the Body, a Body you refuse to be apart of? Ted was and is accountable to people so who exactly are you accountable to Tim?

      You state that Ted is “for profit” yet you try and promote a ministry here at TT that also accepts donations with several different credit card and paypal options. How is that any different? Please see the following link to see what St. James is doing with at least 10% the offerings;

      http://www.csindy.com/colorado/borne-again/Content?oid=1730059

      Sorta shoots that theory in the foot eh? If he were really “for profit” he wouldn’t part with any of it now would he?

      Phil

  20. Hi Arthur,

    That was well said.

    Ted had this to say at his press conference;

    “Because of what Gayle and I have gone through the past 3½ years, I don’t think I’m qualified to be a pastor or spiritual leader,” says the former New Life pastor, who had also been president of the National Association of Evangelicals before the 2006 scandal that derailed his career. “But I do believe I’m qualified to help people.”

    Even he doesn’t believe he is qualified Arthur. I don’t believe I am either but with God’s help I’m making the most out of my second chance, one I didn’t ask for or even seek.

    I pray that Ted makes the most out of his second chance, whatever the circumstances surrounding that second chance may be. Will you join me in that?

    Phil

  21. Hello Phil,

    I don’t have your private email, so I will post here..Go ahead and delete this too, if you find it to inappropriate here.

    Again, so as not to ruffle your sensitive feathers I say this in all due respect. In reply to the fact you don’t promote other ministries on your site I am taken aback to what extent you don’t promote other ministries??

    All ministries should promote Truth regardless where it comes from and REGARDLESS who get’s the credit, again the trouble with many ministries!! I realize you have taken it upon yourself to be the judge and jury as to what ministries are of God and I realize you will say that is within a discernment area..

    Seconcly regarding donations..Again Phil, you have selective hearing..the POINT is this: DO NOT GIVE TO A WOLF LIKE HAGGARD!!!

    Can you read my lips in this??LOL : ) Giving to the Lord through a Godly ministry is right and there is not limit to how much because God owns it all anyway and deserves it all!!! NO one can outgive God even if God gave nothing more than what he gave on the Cross!!!

    I hope this is clear..

    Another point, I don’t have an issue with anyone knowing I don’t attend church, and not to say I won’t again and I do plan on it…I don’t see how you think that should disqualify anything I may say that is of the TRUTH!! Being honest and an open book should be admirable not the other way around friend should it not??

    Lastly, Phil for what it is worth and I don’t know where this is coming from but when you are disagreed with you project a real undertone if not overt tone of cynisism and a sense of superiority!!

    With that you have a way of being very condescending..Whatever the reason, it does not provoke a kind conversation at all my friend..With most who would talk to me this way they would good get an earful back, however with you I have and will continue to exercise great sensitivity with you and forebearance..

    AS far as church goes and church attenders especially the one’s who go to churches like this wolf Haggard, it is a waste of time and a slap in the face of truth at best…It also gives the world more reason to say the negative things they do about christianity..

    Allow me to reply to your message below:

    Phil Naessens added a new comment to the post Ted Haggard and St. James Church. Is He Qualified To Pastor?.

    Phil Naessens said on Ted Haggard and St. James Church. Is He Qualified To Pastor?
    June 5, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Hi Tim,

    I deleted your last two comments as I refuse to promote that ministry. I thought I had made that clear. See the right side of the page for ministries and websites I promote.

    I’m glad you brought up the fact you haven’t stepped inside a church in 30 years. I already knew that and wasn’t going to bring that up as it was told to me by you in confidence.

    You have stated in times past you are an apologist. You have also stated in this thread in this thread Ted Haggard is self appointed. Who appointed you to be an apologist who warns the Body, a Body you refuse to be apart of? Ted was and is accountable to people so who exactly are you accountable to Tim?

    ANS: Phil, I honestly can’t believe you are making this an issue and comparing me with the self appointed nature as a HAGGARD AND TEH REST OF THE CONNNED WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT?? Really Phil?? Ok, let me educate you on basic christianity 101, and say that with amazement and sadness that you have gone to this level of conversation due to the fact the answer is so obvious!!

    The reason I am studying the area of Apology and Phil, Apology is not a office nor is it a biblical spiritual gift!!! Apology of the gospel is a COMMAND that all chrisitians be Apologists!!! Phil, please, please, please..If you want chapter and verse so be it , I will give it to you later…but just as John 3:16 is so obvious so is the answer to your attack on me that I am a hypocrite for being an apologist…

    1. Apologists are ..not titles like that of a pastor, teacher, evangelist Phil..So, please don’t even try to compare me with the like’s of Haggard regarding self appointment..

    If you are out of debate notes, for your sake Phil, no need to go to this level when your ammunition is out and your allies are null on this blog anyway, represented by Arthur, Boyd, and the rest for that matter..

    2. Paul states, to have an answer for every man the hope that lies within you..That is Apology Phil, it is called the defense of the Gospel which 99 percent don’t have in the pew or modern day pulpit!!!

    3. All are not just called to be apologists, but COMMANDED TO BE, and because most aren’t that is why we got guy’s like Haggard you defend!! I would suggest defending the TRUTH instead of a man who lacks it… Am I clear now Phil??

    You state that Ted is “for profit” yet you try and promote a ministry here at TT that also accepts donations with several different credit card and paypal options. How is that any different? Please see the following link to see what St. James is doing with the offerings;

    ANS: Phil we are COMMANDED to watch out for the Phony’s in the body of Christ that make merchandise of you!!! Do ya really need chapter and verse!! Making donations to Godly called ministry’s is giving to Christ,,,!!! Giving to Haggard and the rest of the brood of vipers is giving to Hell, Satan, and the antichrist spirit they are drinking from the pulpits of drunken debauchery!!

    Phil in closing,,God Himself exposed this con artist!!! You are knocking your head against the wall when you even go as far as trying to SELL a point of a very easy bible reading verse that states a leader must be beyond reproach and twist the scripture to read something regading the PRESENT TENSE of all things..

    Goodness,Phil, it’s fine to have an opinion, but to go as far as twisting a scripture that all here on your site disagreed with you for obvious reasons is going way out of bounds to defend your friend in Haggard..Don’t pay the price of wattering down God’s word for a snake like this….He is not worth the judgement that come’s with making God’s word less than what it CLEARLY READS!!

    Now, Phil this topic is cleared up…

    Tim

  22. Hi Tim,

    This was stuck in the spam filter and by the looks of it I should have left it there or maybe I’m being “sensitive” again huh?

    Dude, you need to get over your obvious malice towards Pastors. 30 years is an awful long time to carry that type of hatred around. I sympathize with you in regards to being abused by a rogue Pastor, if indeed that is the case, but that doesn’t give you the right to attack Pastors on blogs and whatever. You really need to get over that Tim. I pray that you do.

    Throughout this thread your anger has shown. You don’t like Ted Haggard. OK. That’s your opinion. We get it but to continually call him names is uncalled for and I wouldn’t allow that even if he were my worst enemy.

    When you say “we” are commanded to watch out for the phonies, who would you be referring to? Certainly not yourself I hope. Anyone calling themself a Christian and willingly stays away from the assembly of the saints can hardly be called a Christian. It’s like a man staying away from his wife for 30 years over a disagreement and expecting her to still obey him even though he’s still gone.

    I know “apologist” isn’t an office and I’m really tired of your condescending tone and your “I know more then you” attitude. The last time you pulled that you got the shock of your life when I called you on the phone, huh?

    Scripture twisting? How so? I’m not trying to sound “superior” but I’m reading it in the Greek and its obvious that is a present tense deal otherwise who among us could really be blameless? Arthur gave a great example of why he isn’t “blameless” and he is correct.

    The big difference between Haggard and you Tim? He’s willing to put his church hurt to the side and serve the Body in the best way he knows how. You aren’t. He may be a “wolf” in the eyes of many and only time will tell if that is indeed the case but until then I will continue to pray that it doesn’t and since you claim to be so concerned about the Body maybe you should do the same because no matter what anyone else says he’s “Pastor Ted”……

    Thanks,

    Phil

    PS: Great way of ducking the accountability question my friend.

  23. Phil,

    I know you have a relationship with Ted and some insight into his current plans. I watched the interview on CNN with Joy Behar and he was very contrite about his failings. She ask him if gays would be invited to his church and he said yes they would along with a host of other classifications. She then pressed him a couple times about if he considered homosexuality a sin(she interjected that she didn’t think it was). Ted didn’t answer her question except to say that sexuality is a complex human situation and that his hope is to help people work through their problems.

    I am assuming that Ted does think that homosexuality is a sin just like adultery and covetousness and lying all the others listed in the Bible if he is going to teach from the Word, or he wouldn’t have repented for his mistakes, and that he has decided to not be personally condemning but rather let the word of God and the Holy Spirit reach people. Am I on the right track?

    I don’t expect my opinion to be to popular but self-righteousness can get one into alot of trouble. You don’t have to look very hard to find some hypocrites in the public crusades against other peoples sins(Focus on the Family, Catholic Church, Al Gore etc. and yes Ted Haggard).

    The problem I see in the comments and even your orginal question is, What is a Church? Evangelism is a different office from pastor and somehow people think preachers should be both. Ted was talking like an evangelist in this interview and should stay away from pastoring. Jesus said he didn’t come for the righteous but for the sinner. He was an evangelist not a pastor. Jesus didn’t want to settle disputes between people. Remember the incident about an inheritance? Unforunately our tax laws are what define a church and Ted may not have any other way to operate or gather people. We seem to forget that Jesus had compassion for the harlots and wrath for spiritual hypocrites.

  24. Boyd,

    That was well said.

    Ted has stated over and over again that he is unqualified to be a “pastor” for some of the very reasons that have been stated here and elsewhere. He was “Pastor Ted” for so long he sometimes refers to himself as “Pastor Ted”. After 30 years its become a habit.

    Yes, Ted believes homosexuality is a sin. He’s said that over and over again. The reality is this; no matter what he says or how he says it he will get hammered. I think he’s reached the point where he’s discovered that a ministry of condemnation isn’t what Jesus would want especially when he has committed the very same sins.

    A church is defined as a “building” but in biblical terms a church, or “ecclesia” is defined as “called out ones”. Hebrews 10:23-25 states that we shouldn’t forsake assembling together. All Ted is doing is making a place available for that to happen.

    Did he know he was going to plant this church when he denied it? Sure he did. Unfortunately he couldn’t come out and say it as all the paperwork and other details hadn’t been finalized. Remember, this is public enemy #1we are talking about :-)

    Did you know in the early days of Christianity their gathering places didn’t even have a name? Neither does mine (well it does but we don’t use it) and I’m thrilled about that. Ted’s has to for the government and of course to protect him legally. As you can see not everyone believes in repentance and restoration. How unfortunate.

    Hope this helps,

    Phil

  25. Hi Tim,

    I’ve turned your comments over to my board as I believe they are very threatening in nature. You may contact them at the following address so you can bring ecclesiastical charges against me.

    Rev. Dr. William Miller

    bilmiller68 at yahoo dot com

    Mr. Stavros Panoulas

    behindthe.shades at yahoo dot com

    Please contact them directly and refrain from contacting me again.

    Thank you,

    Phil

  26. Phil,

    I received the following from “Tim Smith” this morning and thought your readers should see this.

    From: Jacob Prasch
    To: Sandy Simpson
    Cc: Danny Isom ; Mike Oppenheimer
    Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:00 PM
    Subject: Fwd: FW: Hi Sandy – please use this one.

    [HI SANDY, PLEASE USE THIS ONE TO SEND TO TIM, THE BLOG, AND TO FLASHY PHIL]

    I am afraid that Flashy Phil is an ignoramus.

    * If Flashy Phil had read the website before commenting he would see that most of the articles regarding Haggard are not even mine and are not authored by me but by a member of our USA team or outside contributors. Moriel is ‘Jacob & Friends’ not “Jacob”.

    * If Flashy Phil had read the website before commenting he would see that article is a sequel to other articles on the website (one by Mike / Sandy) on Sister Ted where the issues are well documented.

    * If Flashy Phil had reviewed the website before commenting he would have seen a variety of material from the Moriel missions program to AIDS orphan babies in Africa to the feeding program for garbage dump children in The Philippines, to pro-active scriptural exposition unrelated to Discernment issues, to evangelistic material oriented towards seeing Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Mormons etc. saved. It also lists churches we were led to plant.This is what Jesus has called us to do. What does Flashy Phil do except churn out internet rubbish defendIng wickedness?

    In fact Discernment related material constitutes only a clear minority % of what is on the website. How Flashy Phil can call this “One Trick Pony” tells me that he is an ignorant clown.

    I don’t like to revile, but it is just so hard to find a euphemism for a half literate ignoramus.

    * Flashy Phil avoids the issue Paul established in his Epistle to Timothy. Scripturally Haggard no longer has a good name with those outside the church so he is no longer scripturally allowed to lead a church. If he truly repented he would accept the scriptural ramifications of his sin of illegal drug abuse, lying, and having perverted sex with other men. Plainly Haggard does no care about The Word of Gd and neither does Flashy Phil.

    Please forward this to Flashy Phil (without my personal e mail address as I do not waste time corresponding with ignorant clowns), copy it to Brother Tim, and post t on the blog..

    As a Christian courtesy I will reply one time, even to a clown just in case he claims to be a Christian.

    In Christ,

    Jacob Prasch

    Fortunately Mr. Prasch has revealed that he is more then the “one trick pony” you claimed he is. You owe him a public apology and retraction as you have broken the 9th Commandment.

    As you and your readers can see this email has also revealed much about Mr. Prasch. I will leave it up to the reader to come to their own conclusions.

    In Christ,

    Bill Miller

    1. Hi Bill,

      I’ll take care of it after tennis. I’m sorry you had to deal with Tim and his nastiness but after reading his disgusting disrespectful email to you now you can see why I refused to.

      Thanks and enjoy the rest of your vacation!

      PhillyFlash :-|)

  27. Hi,

    Check out the image from this link

    This was taken from my administration on the day Smith and I disagreed. Notice the search terms like “asshole” and “cynical” and also notice how my name is spelled. Ironically its the same way Smith spells my last name. Bill confronted Smith with this and Smith went silent, at least until today. He seems upset that he was asked if it was him referring to me this way.

    Oh brother. This is just another example why I say “no good deed ever goes unpunished”. My good deed? Unlike Jacob Prasch I’ll keep it to myself at least for now.

    Phil

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