Yesterday I received an email from someone asking the following question;
“Should the Pastor of a church be paid for his or her services”?
Since there are so many of you who currently are Pastors or former Pastor’s I thought I’d let you help to answer my readers question.
Here was my answer…….
Hi,
Thanks for the inquiry….
The Apostle Paul stated in 1Corinthians 9 that he didn’t want to abuse his power by taking money (v18) and quite a few people out there believe that this should be the standard for all preachers, pastors evangelists and such but I don’t see that Paul is condemning the paying of pastors. This is only my short answer. I have quite a few pastors who read my blog so I’ll pose this question to them as well.
So here we go….I look forward to a very lively discussion…..
June 18, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Not seeking my own profit but the profit of many that they might be saved”- 1 Corinthians 10:33. “We are not, AS SO MANY, peddling the word of God”- 2 Corinthians 2:17. By peddling that means adulterating for gain. Jesus said that you cannot serve Him and mammon (Matthew 6:24). “Men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth suppose that godliness is a means of gain. FROM SUCH WITHDRAW YOURSELF”- 1 Timothy 6:5. Yourself and not your money.
June 18, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I’m not a pastor. Just an ordinary church member. I don’t mind pastors getting paid. However, Paul was an apostle. I’m not sure if there is an example in scripture of a pastor – a member of a local gathering residing continually in that location – getting paid or not. I’m not sure there is even an example of a pastor carrying out all the roles that a modern church expects of its pastor.
Perhaps it depends upon what the church expects of their pastor. If the church expects a full time person devoted to their gathering’s needs, then it only seems fair to pay them. However, if they don’t want to pay a pastor, perhaps they should all be contributing to the running of their gathering, rather than expecting one person to perform in that capacity for everyone else.
Scripture does teach that we should not take advantage of one another and also that the worker is entitled to his pay. To expect to have a full time pastor yet not to provide an income for them would seem to be taking advantage of that person, unless they have some other means of support and are happy to rely on that instead. On the other hand, for a pastor to demand disproportionately high remuneration would seem to throw the office into disrepute.
June 18, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Hi There,
I was a full time chaplain and today i am a lay minister mainly due to financial constraints.
A true minister that do counselling,visitation,teaching courses,funerals,weddings not even mentioning running a church is a very buzy person, but he also have a family and children that go to college and bills have to be paid.
I have chosen the way of working and paying may way through life but people that go 100% full time achieve so much more for the kingdom as they do not have to waste hours of serving a wordly master.The problem is that too many people try and be pastors which ar not called to that ministry and therefore that church do not gro and then they end up praching money and putting people in bondage to give.Such do more harm than good.
A full time min ister can spend more time preparing good messages and feeding people better where the lay person rushes between church work and home.
One of my friends is just giving up the ministry as he cannot pay the bills and is pastoring a small church.
Also a lay minister have to use people to do much of the ministry for him which is good as he does not become a one man icon.
My experiece say
If God provides be full time but do not make a church a crutch
June 18, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I have no problem with pastors being paid and I think they should be compensated for their service. Let’s take Osteen for instant he pastors but my understanding is that he’s not being paid for it but his books deal is were his money comes from.
I can understand that concept if you have no other way of taking care of your family and you are the pastor by all means get paid. In other words as a lay person who believe in the tithes and given yes they should be paid.
June 18, 2008 at 3:22 pm
As a bi-vocational Pastor, I work to take care on my family. Pastoring is a honor to me. 1 Corinthians 9:14 teach if you Preach the Gospel you should live from the Gospel. I work so I can Preach what GOD want me to and not man. So yes a pastor should to paid. How much is up to the Church and Pastor.
June 18, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I find the pentecostal circuit an interesting point – check out ministries that have the same set of pastors travelling around (literally the world) speaking at each others churches and receiving large “love offerings”. The minor pastors in those churches who aren’t invited to preach struggle just to keep their heads above water.
This is a serious issue when you think about it – how many “offerings” taken up at endless rounds of conferences?
Perhaps this is a little off topic but there is a lot of money in the larger congregations (mega churches) and when you investigate the itinerarys of certain pentecostal pastors, it’s very interesting!
June 18, 2008 at 10:43 pm
I have no problem with the pastors needs being taking care of by the church (food, shelter, a means transportation).
However, as we have seen in this blog as well as others, some pastors are recieving money based on church tithes, number of members, and job performance (not sure about that one).
This always leads me to ask a question that only THAT pastor could answer.
Are you trying to get more members to join so they can tithe and increase your income, or are you truly trying to save as many souls as you can.
Its a tough question, but if the pastors salary is based on numbers of people in the church it needs to be asked.
For me, a set income (no matter how big the church becomes can help weed out the greedy, from the Godly)
Although, I could be wrong.
June 18, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Phil,
I could argue that an organization that hires a leader is not a church to begin with? I could argue that anyone who won’t preach the gospel for free doesn’t preach the gospel? I could say to you that most people do not think that the local hamburger joint has their best interest in mind so why would a paid according to attendance pastor have their best interest in mind-or I could remind you that the term pastor is only mentioned one time in the NT and the office of elder is mentioned 32 times? I could say alot of things but I can’t figure out why you are hitting me soft lobs trying to get me to the net?
Phil:Teddy’s comment is sorta the direction I’m going:)
June 19, 2008 at 5:38 am
Its interesting how keen some pastors are to have their support staff work for free, too. Including where the support staff are facing financial stress, are capable of working somewhere else full time, and where the loving thing to do is probably to encourage them to actually look for work elsewhere in order to survive. Even to the point of pressuring these underpaid people to contribute to building funds etc on top of all that, or lose approval/position.
I agree with Teddy re the love offerings, too.
It’s unusual to see a love offering taken up before the preaching too. If people are more impressed (or guilt-tripped) will they pay more?
June 19, 2008 at 9:31 am
Hi All,
Thanks for the comments….
Ann brought up Joel Osteen and the fact he makes money off of the books he writes but the reason he is able to make a fortune off the books is due to his being a “celebrity pastor”…..with a worldwide reach via television and conferences that he does not pay for personally….do you believe this is ethical?
Teddy mentioned what I call the “buddy system” where “pastors” share each others pulpits for big money….how ethical is this?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts….
Phil
June 19, 2008 at 10:27 am
Here’s an interesting link regarding on average what some denominations are paying thier pastors….44,000 for a youth pastor????
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071002/29537_Survey_Reveals_Which_Pastors_Get_Paid_Most.htm
John Hagee receives 1.25 million dollars a year in compensation?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tv_preachers/tv_preachers7.html
June 19, 2008 at 2:39 pm
44,000 is way too much not to talk of 1.25 million dollars. No wonder we have so many people scrambling to become pastors.
I won’t say I’m totally in support of pastors being paid. Nobody should go into pastoring with the mind of being paid.
However in 1Corinthians 9, emphasis on verses 10-15, Paul says
From the above passage, it is clear that it is scriptural to give to the man of God (I don’t mean PIMPS). But, also note that Barnabas and Paul never took advantage of this right for the sake of the gospel.
True biblical giving is about equality and not about abundance like we see today. In a situation where the man of God is in need, the people he oversee can assit.
There are several ways we can meet the needs of our overseers without paying them. We see enough examples in Acts.
Here is a link to an interesting discussion on the topic.
http://www.yomisays.com/?p=683
June 20, 2008 at 12:24 pm
One of the problems with most of the scriptures that everyone uses to justify paying a minister is that they are talking about food or clothing not money. We owe everyone Godly hospitality, which is to share with those in need. Jesus separated discussions of money from those of hospitality in all his teachings, however the effort to justify salaries has preverted the spirit of the lessons. When Jesus sent the twelve and the seventy he told them not to take money, but to live off the hospitality of those they preach to. The scripture says “who plants a vinyard and does not “eat” of the fruit”, or who feeds a flock but does not “drink” of the milk, or do not muzzle(to prevent from eating) the ox that treads out the corn. All of these examples concern the simple life sustaining act of eating for nourishment as payment for labor.
If we are to substitute food for money or money for food then can we do the same with the act of communion? We have become so spoiled that food and clothing is considered a given or a right ,so we are discussing how fancy a car we should provide a minister ? I think we are reading alot things into scripture.
June 20, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Our Lord Jesus left the privileges of heaven to identify with us (“he came poor that we might become rich”). Most Christians have a “tent-maker” ministry, working in an occupation where their spiritual obligation is not evangelism but simply to “be ready to give every man an answer for the hope that is in them.”
Since the Incarnation is the central tenet of our faith, full-time pastors should be ready to serve a congregation at the median income of the people who are members of that congregation and not look for an income like a doctor or a lawyer simply because clergy are “professionals” and have had as many years of academic traininng.
June 21, 2008 at 2:58 am
Phil,
Naomi cites the appropriate passage. There is no question the pastor ought to be paid. On the other hand, any pastor who wouldn’t do it for free if he is able is a spiritual whore. The ideal situation is to have a pastor that is independently wealthy and, therefore, able to work free. That being almost never the case, we shouldn’t be asking a guy to starve. That’s actually against the law in the US, so why are we debating something that is clear in Scripture and so obvious that the pagans have outlawed it?
What troubles me about this discussion, however, is the last part of the question. Why is a Christian even contemplating a female pastor? How can one be so ignorant of Scripture? This is why I say we need a reformation, not a revival. We don’t think biblically.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins
Hi Phil….Thanks for bringing the women “pastor” issue up….as many here know I have brought this issue up over and over again and there is no such thing as a female pastor….I only tossed it out there because it seems as though people actually believe there is such a thing….
Yes we need a reformation….badly…
June 21, 2008 at 6:56 am
Hello there!
Since I am a minister (but not a pastor of a church), I will say that I do believe that pastors should be paid .
Many ministers who start a ministry organization use their OWN MONEY for the building and for all of the expenses of the actual ministry for several years. People come to be ministered to for years and many are not financially supporting the ministry other than $1 or $2 a week or an occasional $10. The ministry leader is still paying the electric bill, the gas bill, the A/C, the bills for the furniture, the bills for the insurance, the printing costs, the equipment, etc. and the church members ASSUME that the other church members are supporting the ministry so that it is operating. This is happening more often than you may think.
When I started out in ministry, I did a lot of evangelism, and the materials that were passed out for free were purchased with my own money….the Bibles that were handed out for free were purchased with my own money…I am sure that people felt that other people were donating and that the money for everything was coming from so many financial blessings but THAT was not the case…I was spending my own cash in order to reach people for Jesus.
The point that I am making is that when the general public tries to point to THREE or FOUR multi-millionaire preachers in order to have a discussion on preachers…they are having a SLANTED dialogue because 99.9% of the preachers out here are not even multimillionaires… or even mega church pastors.
If you want to discuss preachers and salaries, have a REAL and FAIR discussion by talking about the majority of preachers ….and not the .0002% of preachers who are in an entirely different income bracket than all of the others who are out here.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
June 21, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Hi Everyone,
Just some thoughts on pastors from my experience in my neck of the woods. I see way too many who don’t manage their congregations very well. Imho, it’s a family and should be treated as such. There shouldn’t be any pew sitters. They should all be entrusted to do something, even if it’s just the dishes or taking out the garbage. If you don’t do your job as a parent, then you raise spoiled rotten brats….and I have witnessed Churches full of them.
The problem I think we face in Churches where there are full time paid pastors, is the same we see in the everyday workforce. IF you. as a pastor, train someone to do your job, they just might do it better than you, and you may lose your position. Well, in the Church, we do want to elevate those who do a good job and IF a pastor lives in fear of this, then the Church will suffer.
On the other side of the fence, those in the pews who think their only obligation is to show up on Sunday and throw some money in the offering plate are even more dangerous. IF they lack the desire to become more involved, then they need to be challenged on why they are there. I don’t care how busy they are, you always find time to do the things you love. While their money might be appreciated, they set a very bad example imho and it is very contagious.
I have found that the pastors who do work outside the Church are far happier and more secure BUT I do believe that if the Church can afford it, paying a pastor is scriptural – as Naomi pointed out.
Hey Phil Perkins – thanks for picking up on the female pastor issue. Good catch.
June 21, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Phil,
I know you know better than women pastors. I was not criticizing you at all.
BUT what Boyd Miller has said is interesting. Could he clarify and add more Scripture to bolster his position. Don’t know if he will change my mind, but I’m interested in reading more.
Phil Perkins.
June 21, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Absolutely, a pastor should be paid. A workman is worthy of his hire and there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into the pastorship, especially when it’s done right. That is a real job, especially in huge churches.
June 22, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Just a few thoughts-
(1Tim. 6:8) And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. The paid to preach crowd hate this scripture.
Matt. 6:11- “Give us this day our daily bread”
Do you believe food and money are interchangeable in the scripture as most of us have been taught in the church/money paid to preach system? If seed is money then why doesn’t it grow if you put it in the ground? (Matt. 25:25)
If you are going to use 1Cor. 9 as justification for paying preachers, then why do you ignore 9:15?
Paid ministers are like paid consultants (I am a consultant), they only get paid as long as they tell their employers what they want to hear.
A Godly workmans wages are laid up as treasures in eternal life.(1Tim.6:19)
There is a great difference between living of the gospel and living on the gospel. Everybody wants to be Joel Osteen, nobody wants to be John the baptist or Stephen.
June 23, 2008 at 10:21 am
Great boydmiller!!!
We saw that paul worked with his hands so that he won’t be a burden to the people he pastored.
But it doesn’t mean that he didn’t enjoy the support and care of some others.
I won’t support when a pastor will have to run around like every ambitious fellow out there to earn a living. If he is going to work, he needs the kind of job that will afford him the time to take care of his responsibilities as an overseer.
Giving it a good balance, every believer should be sacrificial. At the same time we all need love and care from the family we belong to. Both the pastor and the flock should be treated the same way and in most cases the pastor should be willing to sacrifice. Nevertheless, we shouldn’t take advantage of the humility of our pastor by neglecting our responsibilities.
June 23, 2008 at 10:33 am
Phil Perkins-
In regard to my earlier comment. In the beginning of 1Cor. chapter 9, after Paul’s short resume he ask the question in verse 4. “Do we have no right to eat and drink”? This being the primary question he answers in the following verses.
In 1Tim.6 Paul takes on the prosperity crowd and states in verse 8 “And having food and clothing with these we shall be content”. All paid ministers have adopted the prosperity gospel to some extent and teach that money is the key to outreach and growth. The interchange of food and money is used whenever convenient to further this point.
In Matt. 10 when Jesus sent the seventy he plainly separated food and money and stated in verse 7. “And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, FOR THE LABOR IS WORTHY OF HIS WAGES…. The wages are food and drink, no mention of money other than they weren’t to take any.
In the writtings of the apostles (Didache) in chapter 11 it is stated that an apostle or prophet is to receive bread, but if they ask for money they are false. Allthough these writting are not scripture, they do not conflict with scripture.
All of the scriptures that are used to justify salaried ministers of the church either pertain to the OT temple system or misuse Godly hospitality and food. If a man of God or an angel unawares comes to me I owe him food and drink and a garment if he needs one.
I used to think the use of the term “bread” for money came out of the hippie culture of the 60’s, but it appears the church/money system started it before then.
June 23, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Boydmiller,
Thanks for getting back on this. Boyd, I’m REALLY with you on the abuse of God’s people and God’s Word by the money grubbing spiritual whores. In fact, the folks I prayed with at church last night are a good example of the lack of discernment that make this extreme evil. Two fellows in their late 30’s or early 40’s were talking after prayer. Both agreed that they “couldn’t get into” a particular “Christian” band, and they preferred something called “Red Umbrella”. Sadly I failed to rebuke them for their carnality–rating other Christians against each other. The whole thing was disgusting. Sadly, unlike you I didn’t register a rebuke against this sin. Thank you for being vigilant. So few are.
In rereading and reading your last response I would like to point out somethings. First, be careful of bad logic. You wrote, “Allthough these writting are not scripture, they do not conflict with scripture.” Neither does “The Wisard of Oz”. That fact doesn’t mean anything in The Wiz is relevant to the question. Worse, adding to the things God has given us in the Scripture DOES contradict the Scripture because the Scripture forbids it.
Second, be wary of red herring and straw man arguments. Most churches I attended didn’t tie the pastor’s salary to attendance unless it had to do with what the assembly could afford. So lump all of them into a pay-for-full-pews isn’t correct as far as I know. It’s a straw man. And to say that the NT doesn’t mention monetary compensation explicity is a red herring. It doesn’t mention central air, either.
And if the OT does mention it explicitle we know it isn’t a sin. Therefore, we are permitted to pay the pastor. Just the logistics of it would suggest we pay the man. Do you want to go grocery shopping for the guy and his kids? Why not take the dough and give it right to him so that he doesn’t have to act like a lap dog.
Please consider and don’t stop being vigilant.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
June 24, 2008 at 9:36 am
Hello brothers and sisters,
Bodymiller has raised the crucial issue here: our interpretation of Scriptures that teach on supporting the minister to be a pointer to money. In reality, it may and it may not.
In Bible days, food was shared daily among the needy. Certainly, that was extended to the preachers who taught them, hence Paul’s mention of “double honour” for ministers in 1 Timothy 5:17.
If a congregation meets the needs of the needy within it by giving them an allowance (money), then its okay to extend an allowance to the pastor as well.
Secondly, ALL New Testament giving is premised on NEEDS. That’s why Paul mentions food and drink when teaching on this. And in the other passages that both he and Jesus taught on related subjects (and which the prosperity crowd twist), all talk about being content with food, clothing, boarding. The basics.
Like I told my congregation when we looked at this subject some time ago, if I were not working, they were obligated to meet my needs (not luxuries). This would mean basic boarding, feeding, etc. If I want more than just having my needs met, its my responsibility to go get a job.
June 24, 2008 at 11:57 am
Paying a preacher’s rent, board and clothing is one thing. Paying for his car, plane, gadgets and general luxuries is another thing. Like Bro. Yomi, you want the luxuries, go find a job and pay for them yourself…
June 24, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Hi All,
Another healthy discussion…thanks for that!
What do you guys think of honorariums…..should evangelists and pastors guest speaking at other churches suggest or charge a certain fee? Check out the following link;
http://www.justinpeters.org/booking.htm
Notice the following quote from the page above;
“Justin accepts invitations on a first-call, first-serve basis regardless of the size of church. Love offerings are the normal compensation though other arrangements are possible. Transportation expenses and lodging are appreciated”.
What do you make of this? He appears to be a sound guy doctrinally and exposes the WoF movement but isn’t he just as guilty as the folks he’s exposing in regards to his request for “compensation”?
June 24, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Well he is disabled, and a full-time minister. I’d be more at ease helping him financially than someone like Warren, Price, Copeland, Hinn, etc. I agree that the language used could really have been put better.
Compensation is really inapproriate, but I think it isn’t as bad as some others…just my thoughts
Phil: His own church doesn’t even pay him Doug…..and some might argue that if he is able to get an M Div then he would be able to hold numerous non physical jobs if he chose to….and yes his language is bad IMO…
June 24, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Another hireling. Yes he is guilty of peddling the gospel, even if he is closer to correct doctrine. If one takes ten dollars and another takes ten thousand are they not both thieves? It seems as though the majority thinks that payment is fine until they get rich then it is wrong? How much would these churches pay me to tell them to sell their buildings, buses, and cars and give the money to the poor and to gather in their homes for prayer and worship? Nothing, nota, zip, 0. You cannot make money preaching the word of God, however churchology pays rather well.
I wonder if he is as aggressive with the errors in the baptist church as he is with the WOF movement or is he in demand because he reinforces baptist beliefs as their numbers decline?
If you want to draw a big crowd at a baptist church just run a headline on the bulletin for the next service.
“Can a methodist get to heaven?
Guess speaker– Dr. Soandso
(don’t forget to bring your checkbook)
Sorry Phil, I can’t help myself
Phil: Don’t ever be sorry for speaking the truth my friend…I agree with you and I too wonder how aggressive he is with the Baptists…he’s even selling his thesis on Benny Hinn for 14 bucks…..
June 25, 2008 at 9:04 am
Well, I don’t believe that he is a hireling for several reasons. Firstly, he is not preaching false doctrine to make himself rich, as with the likes of Copeland, Hinn and co. Secondly, and this is purely conjecture, for all we know he may not be an aggressive Baptist – that’s an assumption.
I fail to see the difference between Mr. Peter selling his doctoral thesis and John Piper selling his books and CD. $14 is a bit steep, I agree, and it does sound like he’s peddling his wares. That said – I feel he is sincere. Maybe I’m being a teenager, but if he is wrong then what are we to to make of preachers who request an honorarium before they speak? What of Christian bookstores?
June 25, 2008 at 11:40 am
Boyd,
You have raised many great points. You’re driving me to scripture. That’s a good thing.
You know, the SBC is in huge trouble. Their numbers are declining, they have the emergent church very active among them and they are divided now on arminianism & calvinism.
Ken Silva at Apprising ministries has written extensively about it. I’ve tried talking to some of their members and they are closed to anything they view as criticism of their denomination even if they are just questions. When that happens, then the handwriting is on the wall. The enemy has breached the gates and they don’t have a clue.
June 27, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I didn’t read all the posts, so if this verse was quoted, well, it won’t hurt to quote it again, now will it?
1CORINTHIANS 9
1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this:
4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink?
5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working?
7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?
8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He?
10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.
11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we should reap material things from you?
12 If others share the right over you, do we not more?
Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things, that we may cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.
13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
June 28, 2008 at 8:27 am
hi phil i have just realised how much work you put into this site
from MUGGLE
Phil: Thanks Muggles…..You still have to run on Monday dude:)
June 29, 2008 at 7:22 pm
We don’t have scripture for much of what commonly goes on n our churches no matter your flavor.
I read somewhere that in the time of the pilgrams there were nearly 900 types of apples growing in “new land” now there are fewer than 30.
One problems we have with the topic at hand is we can’t compare apples to apples. “Should a Pastor get paid?”The first reference was then about Paul the Apostle. The role of a Pastor in the New Testement was a rather novel idea. The Bible only uses the word Pastor 9 times and only once in the N.T. In hebrew it means one who tends the sheep, grazes , feeds, rules or teaches.
Romans 15:27 …”For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them carnal things.”
I Cor 9:11 “If we have sown unto you spirtiual things, is it a great thing if we reap your carnal things?”
Some people might say that still means beans and weenies for the man of God. I would say pay him as you would in honoring God.
Much of what we do is still based on speculitive assumptions. Since we have no record of Jesus paying the disciples on the first and the fifteenth we say it never happened. I believe that would be wrong to assume such things. Jesus did have a treasurer in his team and never once to we see them giving to the poor or buying rent for someone.
I say pay.
Pastor Mark
June 30, 2008 at 7:37 am
Hello, phillyflash:
And a question back at you, brother:
What about this link?: http://www.apostlepaul.org/booking.htm
Love,
Peter
Phil: Haha! The site appears to be very busy my friend:)
July 2, 2008 at 1:09 am
How about there is no such thing as a “pastor”. Would that be a challenge! How about Paul was not a Pastor but an Apostle/Evangelist/Preacher/Church Planter. So if they travel then yes, but a “salaried” position is nowhere condoned in scripture. Each was commanded to work with their own hands. Especially today when 80% of all giving goes to infrastrucute and salaries. But I can go on with this for a while. If you pay one pastor why not pay them all (pastor/elder/bishop/overseer are synonymous)
July 2, 2008 at 11:03 pm
You are right Lionelwoods,
The bible cannot be studied, and the truth will not be found, thru the lens of tradition. The laziness of the masses does not diminish the truth of the word.
July 15, 2008 at 4:58 am
I think the bigger picture is, as lionelwoods7 suggest, that according to scripture there is no such thing as Pastors that we are all to familiar with today. The early church was composed of ONLY believers as they gathered together to encourage one another in Christ and when they gathered, they read the scriptures (i.e. the Old Testament) and as the Holy Spirit so led them, they shared with the congregation what God was speaking to them. It was not man that spoke to the church during their gathering time, but it was the Holy Spirit. The job of the Elders were to, as they were mature in the word of God, make sure that no false teaching was given as people discussed from among themselves concerning any spiritual matter.
July 15, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I do believe in the 9th chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul details the many things that he, as an apostle, can receive from ministering. In verse 14 He goes on to say that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel. He points out a series of explanations for justification of how a minister of the gospel is entitled to compensation. But he reconciles the entire message with the fact that he DID NOT partake in those things. He said preaching the gospel was reward enough. I think it’s clear that Pastors are entitled to compensation. I just believe that Paul warns Ministers of the gospel not to abuse this right. Because if the money stopped flowing and the people didn’t believe tithing was a Christian requirement, could they just preach the gospel and have that be their reward?? Like it was for Paul, shouldn’t teaching the gospel and saving souls be enough reward? Or should we continue to take the last cent from Christians and justify it through our own reasoning?
September 30, 2008 at 6:52 am
the law of mose is no more…this was nailed to the cross..
there is no more tithe,,if there is no temple,no priest,no sacrifice
today… all shadows of things to come…
the levitical law states the 10 % was for the up keep of the temple tax.priest the levites and for the poor….
there is no temple to day..no levi to make sacfifices for us
Christ was that sacrifice for us .. now we dont need a priest to make intercession for us, We can enter the thrown of grace ourselves..but we are to give freely as God gave his son for us….
God says not to be greedy…..when the jews brought the animals for sacrifice and their offerings…they sick blind and lame…this showed the condition of their hearts..this is what god looks at.
if you order your people to give 10% you are putting them under the levitical law…and that is bondage. God has called you to grace.
We are no longer under the law of mose…jesus was born in form of sinful man ,yet did not sin and born under the law of mose..
to do away with all temple service…because he was the sacafice…
but the law of God which is the royal law ….still stands and can only be fullfilled through christ in dwelling in you…
you give freely now… Pastors when you preach freedom to your flock they will give freely….pressed down running over to meet the needs of the church..as they did in acts…they lacked nothing..
they took care of the needs or each other….including the pastor
God wants all of you not just 10%… percent of you…
do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing…
you dont have to fill out the thithe envelope… Just thank god and toss it in the offering basket.. he is the one that will supply all of your needs…it does not mater how much you give…it is done already he paid the price… I have a whole lot of scrip to back all this up.. thanks for looking..M
September 30, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Hi M,
I have some questions for you. You claim the law is abrogated, but Christ said He didn’t come to abrogate it, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). Two different positions there imho.
So is it ok to murder, steal, covet, dishonor mother and father, etc.? By what standards to we conduct ourselves? Paul called the law HOLY JUST AND GOOD (Rom 7:12). Do you disagree?
January 16, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Paul says that we should give out of our abundance so that others may not lack and they chould give out of their abundance so that others wont lack and it makes an equality within the body, giving to the church should be for the support of everybody not just one person, idont have a problem with the pastor getting paid but if he’s not in need and someone else is why not help that person instead, giving should only be for the needs of people in the body!
January 24, 2009 at 12:14 am
Answer: A pastor, preacher, teacher, and/or other is not a servant of the One True Heavenly Father or a servant of the One True Jesus Christ or a servant of the One True Holy Spirit if they are paid.
John 10:12-13
If you still are puzzled or think its okay that a servant gets paid (yes even a preschool teacher) then your soul (life) is in serious danger as you now KNOW the answer and deny
Sincerely, A Friend and Servant, Don.
Phil: The Scripture you have presented has nothing to do with providing for the pastor. Is paying or not paying the pastor a salvific requirement? You need to clear that one up for me Don.
January 28, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Dearest Phil (and others),
The bible states if one shares the truth to others they are responsible for the others… I have shared. Thank you Phil for writing herein. The passage has everything to due with paid servants and a pastor is a servant.
John 10:7+
(NIV)-courtesy of http://www.biblegateway.com
{my comments}
7Therefore Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep {sheep = humans who follow}. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I{Jesus} am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He{was sheep and now saved and friend} will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I{Jesus} have come that they{friends of Jesus} may have life, and have it to the full.
11″I{Jesus} am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.{Yep! Jesus did that} 12The hired hand{workers that are paid} is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf{Satan} coming, he{workers that are paid} abandons the sheep{you} and runs away{because the workers know they are not working for the One True Gods Son “Jesus”}. Then the wolf{Satan} attacks the flock and scatters it{prophecy so it will happen}. 13The man{Note: not sheep bc, not follower,… worker.} runs away because he is a hired hand{Yep! worker} and cares nothing for the sheep{hmm wonder what he cared for? $$?, Prestige?}.
14″I{still Jesus-always will be} am the good shepherd; I know my sheep{followers with patience and love building a friendship with Jesus. Amen.} and my sheep{same} know me— 15just as the Father{The One True God – see above – He who sent thee, Jesus.} knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep{Because Jesus loves us}. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen{aka ‘fold’ meaning there are more than one group of sheep. As with all things in the bible everything I have learned so far shows completion via twos aka pairs… yes even the virgini birth. Amen.}. I must{Jesus sets the example by still doing what he is told. Hmmm by whom? Yes the One True God aka Heavenly Father.} bring them also. They{2nd fold} too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd{prophecy again… it will happen and it will be a wonderful party. Amen.}. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again{Jesus life was not taken from him but he layed it down. Also he did not give up but gave it with love.. love everlasting.}. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord{Yep!}. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again{Sounds like free will…Hmm were does each of our free will lay.}. This command{Jesus still doing as told.} I received from my Father.”
19At these words the Jews were again divided{Divided again. Note again (happens in twos)}. 20Many{Note: Many.. .Hmm can you think of a time in the future where we will see a division and many will not follow? Why wont they follow… there leaders are fake… working for money or prestige…} of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”{they were wrong yes? Yes! In whom do we trust? In whom do we build a friendship? Why do we build that friendship? How do we build that friendship? When do we build that friendship? (repeat questions please and stay true.)}
21But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”{Yes! others believed. Oh the other fold… Hey complete context.}
Again!! Thank you Phil. May God Bless You and Yours.
please allow my email to be posted as there are those who want to ask questions in private.
donaldstanley2@hotmail.com
Sincerely, A Friend and Servant, Don.
Phil: Hi Don. Thanks but maybe you need to see this posting. I think it will clear some things uo for you http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/is-it-biblical-to-provide-for-the-pastor/
February 8, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Should a pastor be able to set their own salary? We have seen a pastor who has a small group of paid staff run the church and set the pay each receives. We have asked but they will not disclose the amounts to the congregation. They have no deacons or elders and do not solicit or accept any input from the congregation. I have been deeply troubled by this. Should I be or should I just let it go?
Phil: You should be VERY troubled by this. In fact you should run as there isn’t any accountability where church leaders are concerned. Run James Run and never look back.
February 9, 2009 at 5:46 am
If this church is in the USA, I’m not certain this guy can operate this way. In the USA, the government see a church as a corporation — the pastor is the CEO, the elder/deacons as the board & the members as the shareholders. All of the church property is actually owned by the shareholders & at any point the shareholders have the right to revoke the CEO’s leadership. Also, by the CEO & board withholding the corporation’s financial statements or taking no vote, I believe the church/CEO/board is in legal trouble. I’d check it out with a lawyer if you are serious. Then you would need to get help from other “shareholders”.
May 7, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Hey All,
I think the real question here is whether or not it is Biblical to tithe. Those of you who do not believe in paying pastors, where is your money going? Is it that you believe the church is stealing your hard earned income? Is it not God’s money? In my own experience, those who do not believe in tithing are usually the same ones who do not believe in paying pastors. 99% of you who do not believe in paying pastors do not give to the needy, you don’t take homeless people into your home, you don’t care for the parentless. Tell me, are those ministers who do bring in the big bucks being any more hypicritical than ourselves?