“Facelift’s” Horrible Hermenuetic

2008 June 7
by Phil Naessens

I said a couple weeks ago that the bible may have been written for us but it wasn’t written to us…..and I took some heat for it. I’ve also decided to use stronger rhetoric and I took some heat for that also…Two days ago I discovered by accident a blog that linked my work that proved both of my complaints were legitimate and I couldn’t be happier;

 

“Facelifts” comments in particular are a real intellectual treat…. She/he/it never read my site and had no idea the recent history or even to whom my blog posting was about on that day. This “facelift” committed eisegesis and of course read into things that I didn’t say or even imply as you can see by this persons responses to my article.

 

Facelift had an agenda to push and he/she/it proved this by the way he/she/it massacred my article and missed the whole point… how silly people miss the mark by reading the bible with an agenda….. which of course was the point of my article….and a good reason why I say the things the way I say them.

 

This is how they do Theology today. They have certain agenda’s and make the bible say whatever they want it to say and completely ignore basic hermeneutics like;

 

1). Who wrote the Book or Epistle

 

2). To whom the Book or Epistle is written to

 

3). The culture and history of both the writer and the intended recipient

 

4). The context of the Book or Epistle

 

Facelift didn’t take any of these basic rules of interpretation to my article and instead came up with the following accusations based on he/she/its agenda;

 

1). That I believe and teach poverty over prosperity

 

2). I was “flippant” about Johns greeting to Gaius

 

3). That I don’t believe in praying for others “wellbeing”

 

Now how this person came up with all that from my article is a mystery that only she/he/it can answer…..but an excellent object lesson and I thank this individual for this!  

 

I was also accused of using insulting language like the word silly in my description of Mr. Chee Seng Yeaps misguided interpretation of 3John 2….I don’t think I was insulting Chee Seng because his misuse of 3John 2 as some universal master plan for our financial prosperity was silly…..and almost as silly as “Facelifts” misguided critique of an article he/she/it never understood but used to push an agenda.

 

The bible is full of strong rhetoric. Jesus described the false teachers of His day as blind guides (Matthew 15:14) workers of lawlessness (Matthew 7:23) hypocrites (Matthew 23:13) hirelings (John 10:13) and whitewashed tombs (Matthew 23:27). Paul Jude John Peter and James pulled no punches as well….and I believe we should be just as strong as they were when dealing with people who teach false doctrine.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 Responses leave one →
  1. 2008 June 7
    teddy permalink

    Hi Phil,

    I’ve reposted this article back on Signposts02 for Facelift to see. I’m interested to see where he goes with it – he does like to “discuss/disagree” with most of us! Thanks for the Lakeland posts – Justin Peters does a good expose as well.

  2. 2008 June 7
    FaceLift permalink

    Come on Phil! I’m flattered by the attention, but you should really have been honest in the way you presented my case for me. I was only getting started, but you scooted off before we could get down to it, and you haven’t presented my case very fairly to your friends here.

    Here’s another look at the basis of my hermeneutics from the non-prosperity-teaching evangelical Barnes, who inspires my hermeneutic on this, over at the site you were graciously quoted on, Signposts02:

    http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/health-and-wealth-or-just-a-greeting/#comment-1459

    Hi Facelift….this is just an object lesson….nothing more nothing less…and I provided a link to the site so anyone with the desire to can see everything you posted….and how you made some general assumptions about me and my article without knowing all the facts….which is what some people do when when they read the bible…

  3. 2008 June 7
    ravingpente permalink

    I think the word ’silly’ is mild language. Really you’ve been quite restrained. I totally agree with your message regarding prosperity doctrine.

    The only thing I personally would be cautious about, while not wanting to judge you for it – its not that you are necessarily wrong – is the disparaging language towards people caught up in this lie. While some of them are responding to the appeal to the flesh that you identify, no doubt, others are just trusting their teachers. This level of unquestioning trust is usually taught in doctines that accompany prosperity teaching and tithing heresy. Its not just prosperity doctrine that these people need to recover from.

    I agree that the word ’sheeple’ is pretty descriptive at times, but I wonder if it and other disparaging terms are helpful to those we’d like to see freed of these doctrines. They may add insult to injury. For people are undoubtedly often injured by prosperity doctrine, and the closer to the church inner circles they are, the more they have usually given; the more they are eventually injured when the doctrine proves to be a lie.

    God bless!

  4. 2008 June 7
    boydmiller permalink

    If I were to read a letter written by my great grandmother around the turn of the century(1900), and in it she described a gay young man she had met. I would not assume him to be a homosexual but rather cheerful and happy. Context and custom is everything.

  5. 2008 June 7
    FaceLift permalink

    Ah, the thing is Phil, that you wrongly assume everyone is able to understand that you are not writing individual posts, but some kind of series of interlaced and linked posts which add up to some grand scheme.

    Perhaps you should title each post with something like ‘part 1′, ‘part 2′ etc., so that other folk understand what you’re doing.

    I took your post at its own face value, and you were ripping ino some people. I also saw you rip into some hapless soul by the name of Chee on another post, who you call ‘clueless’. That’s very inviting!

    I guess that’s the way you are, but don’t expect Chee to feel welcome to come here and respond any time soon. It’s better to be welcoming so that people can interact with your critique. it makes for more interesting threads, anyway, when you encourage discussion and debate rather than ridicule and contempt.

    You haven’t answered the questions I asked on Signposts02, by the way.

    Phil: Chee won’t come here anyway…to my knowledge he never has and won’t unless I pay him to…

    I did answer your questions there and will do so again here;

    Hello Facelift,

    Perhaps reading for understanding isn’t your forte….

    My article that someone from here stumbled upon was intended for someone else….and for my readers who have been attempting to instruct this man that his use of 3John 2 was horribly interpreted….he has created doctrine out of a greeting….which was explained in the article……

    What part of this don’t you get?

    I’m hardly in a corner Facelift…….I happen to agree with you that this greeting was done in love for a Christian brother and I said as much in my posting….

    My latest posting isn’t a slam against you….it’s an object lesson. Did you know who I was referring to or what I was referring to in my article. No you didn’t. You misread it which is exactly what my contention is with the name it claim it blab it grab it prosperity crowd……and you proved my point….

    I have much on my plate and don’t have time to squabble with you over greetings….if you truly believe 3John 2 means that God wants us all healthy and wealthy then I would disagree with you….and you are more then welcome to debate this issue on my blog if you’d like…..not out of fear but out of time constraints….

    BTW: If I really wanted to have a “go” at you I never would have provided a link on my site to this one now would I?

    Thanks for the advice but if you look at the right hand corner of the homepage you will see a number that suggests your advice may be off.

  6. 2008 June 7
    FaceLift permalink

    Finally, Phil, your post above is actually misleading on several fronts.

    I actually commented in far more detail on my assertions than you claim. I also backed up my assertions with scholarly evidence. I also gave detailed reasons for why I thought some of the Greek was badly interpreted in the ESV, again with scholarly evidence, and I also asked question on the Greek which have not answered.

    You took out three things personal to yourself and made them the sum-total of my comments, and also insinuated that my intelligence was lacking and I was silly. You claimed I avoided the four points of reading scripture, that is:

    1). Who wrote the Book or Epistle

    2). To whom the Book or Epistle is written to

    3). The culture and history of both the writer and the intended recipient

    4). The context of the Book or Epistle

    Which I totally refute, and remind you that I gave evidence for what I said from respected commentary.

    Te only sensibl and pleasant thing you have said is ‘if you truly believe 3 John 2 means that God wants us all healthy and wealthy then I would disagree with you….and you are more then welcome to debate this issue on my blog if you’d like’, which is far more reasonable and inviting than questioning either my intelligence, hermeneutic skill or sense.

    I mean, I’d probably agree with you that the are all seriously lacking, but it’s not very friendly of you to say so!

    All I can say in conclusion is that I pray ABOVE ALL THINGS that you will have a prosperous journey, and be in good health, even as you soul prospers.

  7. 2008 June 8
    ravingpente permalink

    I forgot to say – I think your blog is doing a great job!

  8. 2008 June 8
    signpostsfree permalink

    Wow, Phil, what happened to my last comment? Was it moderated and removed. It had really encouraging ending too!

    Here’s a reply to your claim of poor hermeneutics. Can you be fair?

    http://signposts02.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/facelifts-condensed-hermeneutic-on-3-john/

  9. 2008 June 8
    signpostsfree permalink

    OK I see, I’ve come over as signpostsfree, which is my WordPress name for Signposts02, and the FaceLift blog-name doesn’t show up. I’ve been in moderation for hours however. I’ll guess that’s because you’re on the other side of the earth. Apologies if this is the case.

    Phil: We’ve had a storm here that knocked out the internet…sorry for the delay….ah, the joys of living in Paradise!

  10. 2008 June 8
    FaceLift permalink

    OK I can still see it! Have a great day (or is it night?)!

  11. 2008 June 9
    FaceLift permalink

    Nicely played, Phil. You’re good!

    I’d expected the opportunity, both here and on Signposts02, to discuss or debate the relevant scriptures or principles, but you managed to avoid everything, and we actually ended up in some stupid bun-fight about who said what about whom.

    You didn’t answer my questions. You circumnavigated them.

    All you actually did was pour ridicule.

    My main error was to attempt to hold my own in this match of wits, but, in he interest of Christian brotherly love, I bow to your superiority ability to ridicule others.

    So, if you can’t be bothered to comment in friendly, controlled, scriptural basis, and discuss doctrine, our involvement on both sites is, in regard to this would-have-been discussion, over.

    Personally I would have enjoyed the opportunity, and find some of what you say beneficial, but you seem reticent.

    Be blessed.

    Phil: Facelift….I only resort to riposte when there is no alternative….what do we have to discuss? You poorly interpreted my article and got called out on it….I agree with you on most of your interpretation….

    How many times did you twist my words? How many times did you attribute things to me that I didn’t say or even imply? I have no intention of disussing anything with you…..here there or anywhere.

    Have a nice day!

    Blessings,

    Phil
    3John 1:2

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