Theology Today
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them Ephesians 5:11

The Sacrilegious Six

In May of 2007, immediately following the devastating secular expose of Paula and Randy White, I made the remark to some friends that only government intervention would slow these wolves down. Well, we’re about to find out if I’m right as SIX ministries are being called out by Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa. The Sacrilegious Six are none other then; Paula and Randy White, Benny Hinn, Joyce and Dave Meyer, Creflo and Taffi Dollar, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland and Bishop Eddie Long. This is serious business folks!  

If you’ve taken the time to read each of the letters sent out by Senator Grassley, you will see that no financial stones will be left unturned. Each letter is different but very specific. Senator Grassley is demanding EVERYTHING from these thieves, right down to clothing and cosmetic surgery expenses possibly paid for by these ministries. It is alleged that Joyce Meyer Ministries actually paid 23,000 dollars for a marble toilette for her ministry offices! 

 I’ve maintained all along that these pimps are only interested in their own personal empires and don’t give two hoots about anyone other then their immediate families and their sycophants. I wonder how many homeless people in Saint Louis could have been fed with the 23,000 bucks Meyer allegedly doled out for a marble throne to sit her pampered backside on.   

I’m sure there are many of you who don’t like the idea of government butting their noses into churches business. Well, I disagree with that reasoning. It was the pimps wanting tax exempt status-not the government. The government now wants to find out if the pimps are abusing their tax exempt status to grow vast empires by manipulating the tax laws. So would I and I would hope that everyone within the Body of Christ would want to know this as well.   

These ministries operate as private kingdoms with very little, if any, real accountability. They have hand picked boards and yes men who cater to every desire the pimps have, whether it’s biblical or not. Who else but government can hold these independent unaccountable kings and queens accountable? It certainly isn’t the pimp’s board of directors, elders or even their congregations. It has to be government. If the allegations are true, then the pimps are pimping the government as well and laughing all the way to the bank!  

One other disturbing aspect of this whole mess is the involvement of Ole Anthony and his Trinity Foundation. Currently, cult leader Anthony is gloating to the press that it was he who pushed for this investigation. Why did it have to be a manipulative heretic Lord? Maybe while Senator Grassley is investigating the Sacrilegious Six he could look into Anthony and his cult as well!    

Personally speaking, I will be interested to see just how much these wolves spend on actual ministry compared with what they spend on their own personal expenses. I’m also curious to see who actually paid for the cosmetic surgeries and the marble toilettes. Is it the ministry that pays or are the pimps using their own personal money? I’m fairly certain these questions will be answered in the next year or so.  

I feel badly for the sheeple who sit under the Sacrilegious Six. These folks are the ones who are really going to suffer. Why? This mess is going to cost their pimps millions and millions of dollars just to answer the questions posed by Senator Grassley. Can you imagine the guilt trips the pimps are going to lay on their sheeple? After all, fighting the “investigation demon” is gonna cost the Sacrilegious Six plenty of bucks so I expect to see big time sheering of the sheeple in the not too distant future!   

Finally, please keep in mind that this is an investigation and not a criminal trial-yet. No charges have been filed or any wrongdoing alleged-yet. As much as I despise the way the Sacrilegious Six desecrate and degrade the gospel, we must be fair because in America, these people are innocent until proven guilty.   

Stay tuned folks. Things are about to get very interesting! 

41 Responses to “The Sacrilegious Six”

  1. These recent events have effected me very much and my faith has decreased as a result. I am a more recent Born-again Christian and my thoughts are that if we are to reverence God and they are not, they obviously don’t believe in the day of Judgement.
    It all just makes me question the faith we follow.
    If they are doing nothing wrong, what should it matter that they provide legimate information of where donators money is going.

    I mean they hide behind a system that completely shields their financial activities. However I hope that I am proved wrong in my suspicions as I would be completely devastated and would find it hard to trust any TV preacher.

    I know they are calling it a Stanic Attack, and going by the effect this is having on my faith and i’m sure many others it very well could be.

    Will the real TV preachers please stand up?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/06/cbsnews_investigates/main3456977.shtml

    http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/pdf/TransparencyGrade_0507.pdf

    Phil: Hi Lisa! Thanks for your comments!

    Your faith should always be in Christ. I would hope that you are in a good bible based church where you are being fed the Word. A general rule of thumb would be not to follow what a TV preacher says, especially on the big networks. When they get to that level, they have to raise an unbelievable amount of cash just to stay on TV. This is when they go all out and only preach to itching ears.

    I’ll be praying for you Lisa!!!!

    Lisa - November 8, 2007 at 8:32 am

  2. Almost forgot!

    I want to say Thank you for these blogs, they are completely invaluble to people needing some clarity on these issues. I know, not all agree with your approach to these matters but your information is pretty spot on and you seem itelligent enough to know what your talking about.

    Great work!

    Lisa - November 8, 2007 at 8:45 am

  3. Interesting! I’ll love to see how this plays out.

    Yomi Adegboye - November 8, 2007 at 8:59 am

  4. Lisa,

    I deal with two cults within my extended family. It isn’t a pretty picture and makes for very uncomfortable family gatherings. The anger resides in both sides. It’s from those who have been active in local Churches for 40-50 years and still are not scripturally equiped to deal with it, and from the cultists who threaten to disappear from the gatherings if anyone insults their belief system. Of course, they consider scripture to be insulting if it doesn’t line up with what they profess. I’ve insulted them a few times.

    Don’t trust in man to tell you the truth. Trust in God and His Holy Word and you will find your faith increased to a level you haven’t even thought possible.

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. If my memory of history serves me correctly, we had the very same environment in the 1400’s, just prior to a major reformation. We can only pray that this government intervention will drive their followers to scripture for truth.

    I pay no heed to any of the televangelists. It’s sad to say, but there are professing Christians who take His Name in vain. That’s why we are to examine each other and name those who profess another gospel.

    Dorothy

    Dorothy - November 8, 2007 at 12:39 pm

  5. Thanks for the kind and wise words Phil and Dorothy!

    I’m from the Uk and not in a local church at the moment and relied significantly on several of these TV ministeries.
    I was so dis-heartened to learn about these events although I have had previous suspicions on some of their tactics before, but I put it down to me being too negative about it.
    Yesterday I was questioning if there really is a God, this is how much it has affected me, it’s like having people you put all your trust in betray you, they gave me hope and they have nearly shattered that hope for me.
    I feel that yesterday God put in my heart to read the bible diligently, that way I will know the truth.

    I will admit I was not of the strongest faith to begin with but I will take a step in faith today to continue my walk with him, but seek him first and pray that he will help me understand.
    They say everything happens for a reason, and the best thing I can take from this right now be they ‘Innocent’ or ‘Guilty’ is this…..not to rely on man but only on God.

    Peace and blessings to all, you have helped me a lot.
    :0)

    Phil: Hi Lisa,

    I would suggest that you begin your bible study with the Book of John. This will help you to really see that Jesus was God and a completely different Jesus then the money changers on TV portray Him as.

    We are all praying for you and are here if you need us Lisa. There are many solid Christians here on this forum so don’t be shy and ask us any questions you have. We don’t have all the answers but we will all work dilegently to help you!

    Lisa - November 8, 2007 at 6:28 pm

  6. When Jimmy Swaggert fell one women in his flock said, “We’ve lost our leader”. Wrong! That is the primary reason why money grubbing churches falter. They’ve got their eyes on the wrong leaders. Jesus is their leader! Creflo Dollar once lamented that his first name wasn’t Billion. The Senate should investigate the whole of the Word of Faith Movement including those of the Elijah List.

    Phil: Well said my friend. I really believe this is just the beginning and if I were a 501 3 c “ministry” I’d be darn sure my books are in order because Uncle Sam is going to be watching them ALL like hawks!

    David Norris - November 8, 2007 at 11:39 pm

  7. Lisa,

    Study is truly a labor of love and God is a great revealer to those who diligently search for Him. I was raised in the Church, but walked away in my late teens due to some very unpleasant events.

    Then 8 years ago, God took me to my knees and I saw myself from His eyes. I was so undone that I grieved for days and almost came to the point of suicide I was so horrified. Then He picked me up and I did a 180 degree turn. I started my search and the TV evangelists were part of my start, but in my study, I realized just how far they were from what I was reading in the Bible. So I turned off the TV and relied totally on Bible study. I tried a few local Churches but found them so seeped in false teachings that I decided to trust God to reveal Himself through his Word and He rewarded those studies richly and still does.

    I tell you this because I know first hand how scarey it is to feel alone in your search. I can testify that I was raised with a dispensational arminian background and now I’m in the fully reformed camp. I still study a lot and it’s a real joy. Don’t get discouraged. He is able to bring you through. I too will keep you in my prayers.

    Dorothy

    Phil: Hi Dorothy,

    Thanks for sharing your testimony! It’s nice to see encouraging things every once and a while!

    What was it that led you to the “reformed camp”?

    Dorothy - November 9, 2007 at 12:32 pm

  8. I had heard about this and I’m glad you put this on your site for more to be informed. These preachers love money and manipulate God’s Word and His people for more money. You never hear of them talking about dying to self, taking up our cross, or even praying “not my will, but Your’s oh Lord.” May the Lord’s will be done in this whole situation, it is obvious God is cleaning His house.

    Dawn - November 9, 2007 at 4:02 pm

  9. Hi Phil,

    You asked what led me to the reformed camp and all I can say is Bible study. I began to study 60-80 hours a week and God provided the time to do it.

    It was during my second year of study that I began taking each doctrine out there, making lists of scriptures from both sides and testing them against scripture. Like Luther, I was looking for the answers on how to deal with my sinful nature in light of God’s Holiness, among other things. Eventually, I took what I had learned and started discussions with both sides to sharpen and test my skill and knowledge. I knew I had to be able to defend my position with strength scripturally if I was going to promote it.

    It was about 4 years ago that I was recruited to confront a major problem with the universalists and the recruiter described me as a strong supporter of the reformed faith. I had a good laugh. I had no clue. My focus had not been on denominations or camps, but on the word of God. So that’s my story.

    As a sidenote: This year has been a real test of faith. My immediate family has experienced many serious health issues which reduced my study time. The family members of the cults were actively involved selling their lies and there is no manner of evil they avoided in order to promote it. I can testify first hand of that. imho They are nothing more than spiritual abortionists who claim they can give you a “life”. What a lie.

    Also, I was in Tampa, dealing with these issues, when the Tampa Tribune landed on the doorstep of my hotel room with the White story. That’s how I found your site and the work here has renewed my strength. This is a necessary work. It isn’t pretty and it’s quite hard to endure, but it must be done.

    Thanks,
    Dorothy

    Dorothy - November 10, 2007 at 2:19 pm

  10. Dorothy, That’s a real powerful testimony and I sincerely thank you for it. You demonstrate a real hunger for Gods word and that is truly inspiring, you are a credit to the body of Christ.

    Over the last few days and due to these events I feel like my eyes have been opened, I have watched very little but some, of what the preachers have had to say and it convinces me even more of what is going on. I hate to say it but it almost seems cult like, the way the preachers have spoke to their church members ever since.
    I understand it is hell when people are dragging your name through the mud or should i say acusing falsely, but if they believe what they preach then this is an opportunity for them to excel in the body of Christ isn’t it?
    If they have not and are not doing anything wrong, then it only seems reasonable that they would welcome such investigations as it would win them more followers if they are proved to be true prophets.

    Today I listened to Bishop Mclaughlin talk about the events and that he has spent time with Bishop Eddie long over the last few days. The one thing that he said which bothered me was, when he said people think it’s wrong that preachers have the luxuries that they do, stop me if i’m wrong but no-one said they shoudn’t be blessed financially isn’t this just a childish and unclarified response?
    Anyway Eddie Long will be appearing on Larry King about this shortly.
    As you can see, I am still deeply affected by this whole ordeal, and will be very sorry if any of them are proven to be sound and above board, but I am grateful to have opened my eyes and question who I am following.
    It will be very interesting to see how the events unfold.

    Thanks again Phil, your site is completely necessary and I agree with Dorothy it isn’t pleasant but Yes it must be done. We cannot sit back and let the false prophets prevail any longer.

    Lisa - November 11, 2007 at 6:07 pm

  11. I was just reading what Joseph said”You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good”. PTL!! and “Love your enemies (most of them professing they’re Christians) and pray for those who persecute you” I’m praying for Phil. The language he feels is Christian and that Jesus would want him to talk like he does, doesn’t sound very holy and righteous. You really get to know a person’s heart by what comes out of his mouth. My family have really changed and been blessed by these teachers; something that never occurred in my catholic upbringing (which really oppressed me) and my subsequent legalistic baptist teaching from a greek scholar and grad of dallas theo. seminary, but never taught me about living my faith out. So I know that my prayers will result in God changing your heart Phil eventually.

    Phil: Thanks for stopping by Olga.

    While you’re “praying” for me, please pray for Paul, Peter, Jude, John and Jesus. They used far stronger words then I do when calling out false teachers. Sounds like you didn’t learn much from the legalistic pastor.

    Olga Lockwood - November 11, 2007 at 10:28 pm

  12. Even if those six mega ministries were to be convicted, there are always some pimps-in-training. One empire falls and another one rises. This would continue until Christ return. In the meantime, we should read the word of God and meditate on His word and let His Spirit be your guide in your daily walk with Him.

    Phil: Hi Angie! Thanks for stopping by. Yes, your statement is oh so true. There will always be pimps so and there will always be a great need to warn others about them.

    Angie - November 12, 2007 at 7:21 pm

  13. Hi Lisa,

    I don’t often give my testimony, but I really felt drawn to do it. I am a huge supporter of Bible study and encourage it everywhere I go. If more Christians were Biblically literate, then these false teachers would not have anyone here defending their actions.

    It’s quite refreshing to see that you have already discerned that.

    I think what bothers me the most is when I see people try to defend them without presenting a scriptural defense. It reflects poorly on their teachers.

    I can only pray that more here will open their Bibles and use scripture as their plumbline. I know they will be shocked to find out what God has to say on matters versus their favorite TV evangelist.

    Dorothy

    Dorothy - November 13, 2007 at 2:13 am

  14. Dear Sir,

    I think the type of commode referred to in the letter to Joyce Meyer is actually a piece of furniture, not a toilet.

    commode (plural commodes)

    a low chest of drawers on short legs
    a stand for a washbowl and jug
    a chair containing a chamber pot
    a euphemism for toilet

    [edit] Related terms

    notimportant - November 13, 2007 at 9:28 am

  15. [...] I was waiting for The Beggars Network (TBN) to weigh in on the Grassley investigation into the Sacrilegious Six. TBN has been suspiciously silent and I was beginning to wonder if Paul Crouch Jr. decided that [...]

    TBN Attacks the Senate Investigation « Theology Today - November 15, 2007 at 2:50 pm

  16. HAHAHAHAHA @ “Investigation Demon!” OMG you’re so right…everything viewed as “negative” is a demon. Doesn’t our God bring justice, too? Doesn’t Hebrews tell us he chastises because he considers us his sons (children).

    Funny how convicting scriptures eludes situations that hits close to home!
    Investigation Demon?? the devil can’t cast out another devil…and adding to that-a DEVIL WOULD NOT cast out another devil! hellooooo!

    Only those clueless in the Lord could swallow such crap!

    ivent - November 17, 2007 at 7:19 pm

  17. [...] and Correction Michael Daehn of Joyce Meyer Ministries has posted here correcting me regarding a 23000 dollar “commode” that I mistakenly referred to as a toilette. [...]

    Retraction and Correction « Theology Today - November 30, 2007 at 11:12 am

  18. “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Matthew 7:1

    In modern language, “Turn about is fair play.”

    Standby Mr. G. Your day is coming; whatsoever you sew, that shall you also reap!

    Phil:Welcome to Theology Today Al.

    Why should “Mr. G” standby”. He’s only doing his job.

    Al - April 29, 2008 at 4:09 pm

  19. First of all, from what I understand Mr. Grassley is a good and
    honorable man and a fellow Christian so I have nothing against him as a person. However,
    this investigation sets a very scary precedent of government intrusion into an area which they have no business being in. There are reasons the Constitution gives us Freedom of Religion in this country.
    For those of you who enjoy the ministries of the six pastors in question, don’t let this investigation bring any legitimacy to the suspicions that Mr. Grassley has. This author and historian says it better than I ever could:
    http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/people-in-grassley-houses-shouldnt-throw-stones/

    This is simply an attempt to destroy them because he is a Baptist
    who doesn’t like part of their doctrine, specifically the prosperity
    message they teach. Of the thousands of churches in America which he could have disagreed with, he specifically singled out one denomination. There is no evidence of any fraud or wrongdoing but he knows he has a very willing media to help him smear these ministries, twisting the facts and putting out all kinds of false information. The media eats it up because they themselves are 95% atheists and love to make anyone of faith look bad. To disagree with the Six is fine, but to try to ruin them
    by using an ungodly media and the government is just wrong, the American government doesn’t go around destroying churches like China does! This is a communist tactic. Its outrageous.

    By the way, 2 of the ministries were just exhaustively audited by the IRS and passed with flying colors of course, and a third, Kenneth Copeland Ministries actually contacted the IRS and ASKED to be audited. Tell me any world-wide organization or business who would do such a thing. At least most of these ministries are above reproach and that will be proven.
    I know most of them are independently audited each year so they are already in compliant and held accountable to federal law.
    Incidently, Mr. Grassley himself authored much of the law which the IRS uses in auditing churches.

    Unfortunately that isn’t enough for Mr. Grassley and his staff because his mission goes beyond the law, he wants to seriously damage his fellow Believers because he thinks he’s doing the right thing. But his method to use the Federal Government is unconstitutional.

    Listen, there are powerful Mormon senators, what if they decide they don’t like what the Baptists are teaching and go after their largest, most successful churches? (some of whom make these six look like paupers but when Mr. Grassley was asked about this he said thats just a coincidence)Then whats to stop the atheists in congress from coming after any denomination they choose? This is indeed unsettling ground to be on.
    This investigation has no merit, no evidence and is unconstitutional, its a personal attack.

    Whether you agree with these ministries or not, we should all, as
    followers of Christ, stand together against ridiculous unfounded and unconstitutional investigations by the Feds. Here are two websites which can be utilized to help preserve our Constitutional Freedom of Religion because once the Federal Government finds it can come after any church it likes for any reason, then life in America is changed forever.
    http://www.believersstandunited.com/
    http://www.religiousfreedominamerica.com/

    “But a Constitution of Government once changed from freedom,
    can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.”
    -John Adams

    Phil: Hi John…Welcome to Theology Today!

    Ah….blame it on the Baptists…..I see…because it has nothing whatsoever to do with these scoundrals living like kings and queens without paying taxes….like all the rest of us commoners do?

    Here’s a solution for those who don’t want the Government poking around in their affairs…..STOP ASKING THE GOVERNMENT FOR TAX EXEMPT STATUS

    john - May 6, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  20. Phil, obsession with your opinions and being God’s policeman brings great sarcasm & probably blindness. Did you read and consider what Doug Wead had to say?
    In some of your caustic writing above you would consider me a “sheeple” but I can take it. If you’d really like to know where the money goes it is published in a chart that you can find on KCM’s website (kcm.org). You’ll also have to wipe the drool of a ministry take-down from your chin when you find out that there’s been no “pimping”(your phraseology is rather a turnoff) for more bucks around this sheeples house.
    If you’re really interested in the other side of the coin. You can listen to or watch some podcasts of a week of broadcasts the Kenneth and Doug did (aired last week) and you’ll get the non-media version of the Grassley investigation. You’ll find out the KCM is willing to answer every question through the proper channel, the IRS, the governmental entity charged with oversight. The information can be gained but Grassely wanted it a certain way.
    Just the same way that I cannot go to your office and poke through you home or office simply because I suspect you of impropriety. The govt. cannot go riffling through a churches files because of a suspicions of impropriety. We have a constitutional right to privacy. Grassley can get all this info the right way and sometimes it comes down to having to force them to get it the right way and not just rolling over. By the way, it’s true that KCM has gone to the IRS and asked for an audit and if something were to be found that they need to change they are willing to change it.
    If I knocked on your door and asked for specific records would you give them to me because you were innocent and trust me to keep everything I found private? Most of us would not. Most of us with a bigger picture view would say this isn’t just about me but there’s a principal here and you don’t get to just come in here like that. There are proper channels to go through. It’s not a matter of secrecy it’s a matter of privacy even when someone doesn’t like your doctrine and wants to see you go down.
    It’s not hard to tell you’re not really familiar with the Copeland’s and the ministries of KCM because just about the opposite is true of the things I’ve read on this blog about their motives. I’d recommend coming to some meetings or the church and you’ll get a better understanding…hopefully, you seem pretty set in your point of view though. But, what does a “sheeple” know. I don’t follow Kenneth Copeland, I follow Jesus and I’m in ministry with KCM. It’s about people and at times us people and us “sheeple” have to deal with money and we don’t shy away from our biblical perspective on finances. Which I’m not going to take the space here to document.
    By the way, I helped pay for the jet the ministry now owns. It was a lot of years in the making but it’s finally helping do the work of the ministry(and non-ministry trips are reimbursed at the proper rate).
    …and about that donkey. I guess I’m living like an unaccountable queen. I own a car and a bike and a cell phone and I own several pairs of skis and I live in a nice place, especially compared to the Masai that I visited in Africa with whom we exhorted each other in the Lord. I even used a airplane to get there. I guess it would have been better to go by boat since Jesus did use one of those. Sarcastic humor I know but I think it makes the point although I’m sure you will not agree.

    Phil: The only mention of the Copelands in my article was that they received a letter….did I strike a nerve Lisa?

    You’re in “ministry” with KCM? The following article relates to another who helped purchase their jet…http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/mrs-bonnie-parker/

    Any thoughts?

    Lisa B. - May 8, 2008 at 6:00 am

  21. Coyness now? A nerve because I wrote a reply? It would be more helpful if you would deal with the greater issues at hend than your disagreement with a doctrine.
    Bonnie Parker’s story is indeed a sad one. Is my testimony of receiving my healing less valid that Bonnie’s story? As sad as her story is what I just can’t buy is a victim mentality. It’s someone else’s fault if I die? It’s someone else’s fault if I give money when I shouldn’t? Where’s the personal responsibility? We are all responsible to study to show ourselves approved… Would you consider including in your anecdotal examples stories of those who have been helped or healed or even financially blessed? Much like a scientist looking at evidence would you be open to considering evidence for a doctrine other than your own?
    Regarding “ministry”. Yes, as a partner with any ministry that I support I am partnering in that ministry. When I support a Christian primary school reaching out to Muslim kids in Mombasa or helping drill wells in India or home fellowships in Turkey or yes, even helping KCM minister to prisoners through Mike Barber ministries yes I am in ‘ministry’ with KCM or all the others. The flip side is true as well. When I go to visit orphans in Romania those who helped me go are going with me. They don’t have to physically go with me but the sender is no less important than the goer.
    I have a research project for you. Get to know someone personally who has been blessed by their involvement with any of the ‘Sacrilegious Six’. I mean really get to know them. You can always find someone upset or feels hurt by just about any church or pastor but find some who are mature in the Lord and who’ve been blessed and ministered to and spend some time with them.
    Part B of your research project. With a willingness to at least hear what they have to say spend some time listening to whole messages on topics unrelated to those you consider offensive. Or better yet go to a meeting. The convention meetings are coming up and may I suggest especially going to the partners meeting. If you really want to know where the money goes you’ll get a good picture of where it’s spent. You still may not like it but I think you might catch a glimpse that we’re not about being greedy money mongers but we are blessed to be a blessing. It’s about Jesus, the great commission and as Jesus himself said doing the work that He did :-)

    Lisa B. - May 9, 2008 at 3:47 am

  22. Hi Lisa,

    I would never attend a “believers convention” conducted by a heretic like Kenneth Copeland…you know, the whole “unequally yoked” thingy in the bible….

    I was in the audience the day he said that God was “the biggest failure in the bible”….I was also there the day he said Jesus suffered in hell for our sins…complete heresy Lisa…but let’s just overlook all that eh?

    Thanks for the research project suggestion…..but I’d rather study my bible….may I suggest you do the same?

    Have a nice day Lisa :)

    Phil Naessens - May 9, 2008 at 6:14 am

  23. 2 Chronicles 6:23
    Judge between your servants, repaying the guilty by bringing down on his own head what he has done. Declare the innocent not guilty and so establish his innocence.

    2edgedsword2 - May 9, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  24. Yep, keep on studying. That is always first priority but in that study don’t neglect to cultivate a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father. I still think the research projects would be good as at the very least you would get to know some great sheeple. I would think that research can only help your endeavor tremendously. But then again there is many a scientist researching hard and they still deny things they don’t want to accept or get fixed on proving one one thing and lose sight of the big picture(e.g. biologists and evolution).
    Ok, maybe a community service project instead. I think most helpful would be 1 minute of prayer on behalf of each or all of these ministries for every minute of blogging against these ministries. Now prayer like, “God take them out” don’t count. Something is bound to change whether it’s them or you.
    Concerning God being the biggest failure in the Bible…you’ve got to be honest here. You know you’ve lifted a sound bite for your purposes. Second, I have no idea where you coming from heresy wise on Jesus suffering in hell for our sins?

    Phil: Lisa, this is going nowhere….you make assumptions about my knowledge of KCM and what he teaches…I WAS THERE and heard this with my own two ears Lisa…..Copeland teaches a “born again Jesus”….he didn’t come up with this by himself….he got this from Kenyon…who taught it to Hagin….

    Finally, in one of your earlier posts you used the word denomination…WoF isn’t a denomination Lisa….its a movement….sorta like a bowel movement…..only a bowel movement directly helps us….the teachings of the WoF bowel movement only helps the teacher….

    Lisa B. - May 9, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  25. Hi Lisa,

    I’m with Phil here. The WOF movement is heretical and we are told to shun and avoid those who teach things against sound doctrine and name them by name so the Church is not deceived about what they profess.

    What you propose is not logical. I could have visited Ghandi’s movement and seen the wonderful reforms he made in his country and been impressed with his humility, but Ghandi denied Christ.

    The same for the Mormons or the JWs. They all do wonderful works, have strong family units, but their teachings are heretical. The WOF movement fits right in with Ghandi, the Mormons and the JWs.

    Dorothy

    Dorothy - May 10, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  26. Phil, I don’t think I used the word denomination anywhere but I did use the word doctrine. Probably if you didn’t get so hung up on trying to catch a heretic you might catch where it’s coming from. Rom. 8:29 says “whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Col. 1:18 is quite clear as well. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.” The terminology of being re-born or born again is the way God chose to phrase things.
    I gather that you also don’t think Jesus went to hell. When he took upon Himself our sin on the cross where did He go and what did he do for those 3 days(and I’m not talking about His body)? To where did He descend as spoken of in Eph.4:9? From where did he lead captivity (a great multitude) in Eph. 4:8? Where did he get the keys of hell and of death of Rev. 1:18? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree whether Jesus went to literal hell and go these things or whether is was all done on the cross itself. Am I therefore a heretic because I do believe He went to hell in His redemption of us? Is someone a heretic because they believe in sprinkling vs immersion or vise versa?

    Dorothy, one of problems with your analogy is that neither the Mormons nor Ghandi believe in the inerrant Word of God and many other aspects of an inerrant Word. You can shun me if you’d like but the purpose of the research project was to see the Word in action in people lives that you consider heretics because of their doctrine not to just observe good works and strong family ties. Every jot and tittle is there by design.
    In your policing the Body of Christ (to which you probably don’t think I belong) be careful to not begin to sit in the seat of the scornful (Ps.1:1). You may be surprised to find out that there are many of us “who delight in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night”(2:2) and we don’t believe exactly like you do.
    I am reminded of Eph.4:13 where we find out that when we mature we will come to the unity of the faith. It’s striking that it won’t be the unity of the doctrine. Unfortunately, one of our biggest downfalls has been our determination to correct one another. But then again, you probably wouldn’t include me in the Body.

    Phil: I apologize for attributing the word “denomination” to you…it was the guy above you. Here’s a link with some quotes for you to ponder and contribute to if you’d like;

    http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/am-i-the-only-one-that-thinks-kenneth-copeland-is-a-heretic/

    Lisa B. - May 11, 2008 at 10:41 pm

  27. [...] One That Thinks Kenneth Copeland is a Heretic? We’ve had the pleasure of witnessing Lisa B attempt to defend Kenneth Copeland Ministries and his teachings about the atonement. I had been [...]

    Am I the Only One That Thinks Kenneth Copeland is a Heretic? « Theology Today - May 12, 2008 at 6:02 am

  28. Lisa,

    Since you say you know the laws of God, then you understand the work being done here. With that said, I’m quite sure then that you would not want anyone here to avoid doing what is right in the eyes of God.

    We aren’t talking minor doctrinal disputes here.

    Dorothy

    Dorothy - May 12, 2008 at 11:34 am

  29. Phil, Oh brother…I’m not defending Kenneth Copeland (although I don’t see what would be wrong with that…I’m sure there are many that would defend you). I provided scripture references to your qualms concerning a “born again” Jesus.
    What strikes me about your writing/blogging and I think what makes you less effective in your mission is the attitude and lack of respect that comes across. For example, when addressing WOF as a movement (of which I agree) you then start taking bowel movement pot shots. Why not treat people with respect? I realize that many people argue on that level but it’s usually not very productive or helpful. I continue to get the vibe that you are mainly interested in taking down ministries under the guise of helping people….but that’s just me reading your lines…

    Lisa B. - May 13, 2008 at 2:59 am

  30. Dorothy, I guess I’m curious to know in your words your mandate from God and I’m also curious to know how you define heresy.
    I don’t know for sure I suspect that if we took the time we might find that we agree on more than we disagree. For example, Rom.10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” For me that is an example of a non-negotiable. There aren’t multiple ways to spend eternity in heaven…there is only one Way and his name is Jesus.
    On the other hand I’m guessing that you find the “prosperity gospel” to which I ascribe objectionable. Do you consider me unsaved/denied Christ because I believe that the God that lives in heaven like He does and that designed the Garden of Eden hasn’t changed? What is the egregiousness Must this be something we part ways over?

    Lisa B. - May 13, 2008 at 3:49 am

  31. oops hit the wrong button…to finish that last line…what is the egregiousness of this belief that we must part ways.

    Lisa B. - May 13, 2008 at 3:54 am

  32. Lisa,

    I’d have to be pretty silly to think a blog could take down an empire the size of the Copelands, don’t you think?

    My writing/blogging style is biblical….the Bible is full of harsh words and sarcasm towards false teachers Lisa…..society has become to “seeker friendly” which is part of the reason what’s commonly referred to as the Body of Christ is in such bad shape these days.

    Phil Naessens - May 13, 2008 at 6:34 am

  33. Hello Lisa,

    (quote)I guess I’m curious to know in your words your mandate from God and I’m also curious to know how you define heresy.

    (me) My suggestion here is that you read the book of Jude for your mandate. On the matter of heresy - those practices or beliefs that do not hold to the core beliefs of the Church - they are often known as the essentials of the faith.

    (quote) I don’t know for sure I suspect that if we took the time we might find that we agree on more than we disagree.

    (me) It doesn’t matter if we agree 99%, if you held Copelands view on atonement or that God’s the biggest failure in the Bible, then I would say we are on opposite sides of the fence.

    (quote) There aren’t multiple ways to spend eternity in heaven…there is only one Way and his name is Jesus.

    (me) I totally agree that Jesus is the only way and I also hold that we are to abide in the doctrine of Christ.

    (quote) On the other hand I’m guessing that you find the “prosperity gospel” to which I ascribe objectionable.

    (me) I believe the prosperity gospel to be a soul destroying gospel. I’ve dealt with way too many who have come out of that movement and the damage can take years to abate.

    (quote) Do you consider me unsaved/denied Christ because I believe that the God that lives in heaven like He does and that designed the Garden of Eden hasn’t changed? What is the egregiousness Must this be something we part ways over?

    (me) This is what I do know. If you are truly led by the Spirit of God, He will not allow you to abide in a position that is contrary to God’s Word. I can also say that the health weath and prosperity doctrine is so lacking in the knowledge of God and so self centered that while you may claim to know His Holy name, you haven’t even begun to understand the depth, height, or width of what the scriptures reveal. Of that, I’m 100% certain.

    Dorothy - May 13, 2008 at 11:39 pm

  34. I had a response but it discarded it….Maybe I’ll try again later

    Lisa B. - May 15, 2008 at 5:27 am

  35. Hi Lisa,

    I look forward to your response….I’ll go toe to toe in scripture every day of the week, but I will not use life experience that does not line up with God’s Word, denies His attributes & characteristics, and remotely consider them as having any foundation on truth.

    When I see experiences called divine revelation and they violate scripture, then I am 100% positive it’s not a God experience.

    Over my years, I must say that the strongest testimony of faith I have ever witnessed are those who are very ill or very poor and still rejoice and praise God. They know their reward is in heaven and not in earthly possessions. You can take everything away from them and they never waiver. The health weath and prosperity crew will never ever understand faith that strong. It isn’t in the equation for them. Thus the spiritual confusion I witness when their followers are faced with these earthly things. I grieve over the false teachings that leave them unequiped to worship God no matter what the season. I can only pray that IF you are promoting material prosperity that you repent today.

    Dorothy - May 17, 2008 at 1:01 pm

  36. Blindness to reality is such a sad thing.. and Copeland is very good(maybe/maybe not) at hiding the truth… although his “distractions” from this investigation are very weak…Doug Wead is a businessman purely and simply… and now on Copelands payroll so of cause he is going to tell you exactly what he wants you to hear… Simple honest truth is all that is required here to show that there is nothing to hide… and if that was the case complete transparency would be all Copeland needed to show his innocence…

    Joh - June 3, 2008 at 1:24 pm

  37. I totally disagree with this posting. I am a strong, mature Christian and I DO read the Word and all these ministers are awesome… I watch them all and am extremely blessed. I am disabled and unable to attend church and the Lord is using them through a trememdous Christian Televison Network to minister to me and reach millions of souls for Christ. Maybe you should attend a conference or a service and then maybe you can see and KNOW that the Lord uses these people and they are true and real… I hope I don’t offend … that is not my intent… thought if I weren’t a mature Christian this would have offended me…

    God bless you and I pray that the Holy Spirit Himself teach you ALL truth… Halleluia!!

    Gail - June 5, 2008 at 5:29 am

  38. Gail,

    Would you do me a favor and take a few minutes to watch a piece that Caren has posted on this site. It’s Justin Peter’s site and right on the front page is a demo of his seminar “A Call for Discernment”.

    Would you watch it and then come back here and tell me whether you agree with what these teachers profess.

    http://justinpeters.org/

    Thanks

    Dorothy - June 6, 2008 at 1:00 am

  39. Gail your exactly the kind of person Copeland and his band of frauds prey upon…. good luck with your life.. you will need it after all is revealed about how you have been deceived

    Joh - June 6, 2008 at 8:05 am

  40. Hi Joh,

    I would like to be optimistic and say Gail will view the video and see what is really promoted by the WOF preachers. With that said, I’m afraid she may be like others who visit this site and want to promote these people without really paying close attention to what they claim.

    It’s easy to come here and criticize, act like we haven’t done our homework, say we haven’t made our case, or we haven’t enough proof, yada yada yada….how many times do we hear that one?

    This isn’t about a slight doctrinal issue. The WOF movement do preach a different Jesus…and that’s deadly. You are most certainly correct that they prey on people like Gail and as she pointed out, because of her disablility she uses them to minister to her, so to convince Gail these people are deadly is a difficult task but one that must be done.

    Dorothy - June 7, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  41. I think what really annoys me about these people( The Copelands/Hinn/Myers/Dollar/etc is the total lack of caring about the poor souls they inflict their poisonous lies upon..sadly many of their victims fall completely into despair once they realize the level of deception they have encountered from these wolves and loose faith completely…its a pity that this investigation is politically biased and that it most likely wont result in much punishment… when in reality they should all be prosecuted to the highest extent and sent to prison for defrauding unsuspecting innocent people…
    But America is in the middle of an election and the Parties involved rely on the votes of the extreme right religious sector which is exactly where these Wolves fit into the picture..
    Who knows one day soon we may get to see these people punished in the way they deserve to be but i wont be holding my breath waiting

    Joh - June 9, 2008 at 1:29 am

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